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Dearly Debated
Dearly Debated

Episode 31 · 2 months ago

THE Ohio State Batman

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

We talk with THE Liam Maxwell about THE Batman movie (right after it came out, then something happened, and now we're publishing the episode). Liam is starstruck, Greg drives the train, and Nathanael went on a date?!?!

Who the heck are you supposed to be? I'm vengeance. Who thought his name was bat man. Yeah, a Batman, but you said your name was venging, because I'm also vengeance. It's just really confusing. You're dressed like a bat, you have this spooky bat signal in the sky and then someone asks you who are you when you say I'm venging, because I'm vengance and bad man the strong. I'm recording because last time I forgot. So we have to make him talk. That's our main thing, though. He shot, he'll, he'll, he'll, he'll crawl away in the corner. Well, I just I know I don't know enough. You don't know anything about Batman either. Dathaniel thinks Lego Batman is the best. He everyone in time is the second best. You know which one behind the Batman? Never gonna talk about today. I mean, okay, so don't want me to start? Yeah, let's, uh, okay, but hold on Um. Let's let's roughly try to like stick to that structure. So we have like we'll intro with just like if you want to drive, Greg you can drive. Well, okay, okay, you know this whole idea. Never mind your ideas, podcast. Alright, I'll start. Think of a middle name. You get it. Of My middle name. Middle Name or an intro thing. You guys can't take mine. Can I go first? You can go first. Yeah, yeah, you got intro him. I know exactly. I've already if you know, you pick a line. Yeah, I have two ones, and one of them I'm pretty sure. All right, so this is where the fun it gains. Welcome to dearly debated, the show where you're entitled to your opinion, even if it's wrong. Ah, WE'RE gonna START US off with our special guest host. I'm Liam. I just want to say I'm honored to be here. First of all, before I say my middle name. It was really nervous. He's really nervous to be on this cast. He was going to have. It's only nerves because I've just I've just been listening a bit, a long time listener, and I've just been a big fan. So he just found this a little star whatever. He was like, what's the name of this thing? I mean he's one of our seven billion listeners. I'm a little START I'm not gonna live in sitting here with you guys. It's really great and Nathaniel. You guys are larger than life. Um, well, maybe nathaniel. Okay, don't maybe come across the thing. I will do it. I'm Liam, vengeance maxwell. I wasn't gonna take I am Greg friends and Nathaniel. I knew you're gonna say that. One the other one. Nathaniel. Some daisy just can't get rid of a bomb leavingson. It's all of us are just like grunting our middle name. Okay, so I think we could do this whole episode. Oh my gosh, it's gonna Definitely Not gonna be funny for like two it's gonna be super listenable. No one's gonna Complain. I want to listen to scroll. Fifty minutes and we're still talking. Alright, hey, so some nathaniel. What are we talking about today? Man, we're talking about Superman. A wait a minute, I'm not in the right place, Liam got really, you've never seen a superman movie? That's okay, they're all not that. Congratulations. A while. It's so funny. So actually, who's WHO's on the show with us all the time? Um, we disagree on a lot of things, mostly because how we how we process movies. Greag and eye processed movie similarly and she processes them differently, which generally leads us to conflicting interesting topic conversations, but usually conflicting your points, um, but we both agree that supero returns. It's one of those boring movies that's ever been. Super returns like it's such a first boring. It's like, you know what, I remember that movie. He gets shot in the eyeball. That's like the very first scene and that's you might as well have turned it off. It's like like he got shot in the eyeball with like some gigantic gun and like it's a close up of the bullet cracking on his eyeball. And I was as a kid. I'm like, this guy's pretty strong and that is a strong gun. Congratulations. And then the rest of the movie happens. It was like I wanted to like it, so it was like Kevin Spacey and then at somebody playing the piano and the movie is over. You know what, I think that was the only date that...

Nathaniel has ever been on. Really nathaniels and he got bullied into dating this girl by his other never told me, as like your friends, this is coming out on the podcast going. Okay, yeah, okay, it's story time with Nathaniel. I'll put a little bit on time. But, Daniel, they got a boring but you're gonna listen anyway. That was not prerecorded. No, it was not. So, yeah, when I was fifteen. Uh No, no, I was sixteen. I could dry by then. So I was sixteen and I swam. I swam competitively since I was there. It is six or seven. Um. So we're swimming and to the girls on the team like hey, you should go out with Sarah, she really likes you. And I was like what? Why? Why would I do that? I was like why would you do this? I was like you little with than and was like I've been interested in this, just do it. And I was like if she asked me out, Oh yes, so she did. She thirst you girls. So we went to like two wonder she was swimming. Dated for a month and she was like this isn't working on. I was like okay, but I remember that one of the movies we went to with Superman returns. So that that relationship. That yeah, I'll tell you. That'll tell you right now from the word. I don't know if there's any relationships still going to this day. That started super or it was in the middle or ending, if you're in a relationship and watch superman returns in relationship. All right, so here, here, here, okay, I have the scenario in which supermber returns actually strengthens your relationship. You're dating someone who is just suffering from insomnia. Do you take the returns and for the first time in years, they sleep, ceased from insomnia. Thank you. have to buy this movie immediately. That would be a story of me dating it. She seems perfect, but then she she informed me she getting slept for two months and I was like, Oh my God, fell asleep in the movie, couldn't wake her up. I left. She's still there, but I know she's still sleeping. Alright, alright, real topic. What are we talking about? That? We are talking about the man. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, non, then man. It's not the best, but man, but the Aman, new one, maybe not the maybe not the the man that we might have wanted, but spoiler alert, but the one that we've got. Is that a line? It's not to hear. It's not the hero, hero you deserve, but the hero you need, which literally needs nothing. That's the dark night. Okay. So, but before we get there, before we get there, before we get there, what's like like? I'll ask you first, because when you can start off, give me your bat your Batman background. Like where? Where's the first time you heard? Like, what was your first experience with Batman? What it like like? You mean me and you watched through some of these old, crappy movies we watched. So give me your unfiltered Batman thoughts. Prior to the Batman Right. So up, prior to the Batman, Greg and I watched. Well, we started watching through the Batman movies chronologically, and neither of US have ever seen I've seen the Adam West one, but neither any ever seen any of the four ones that came about the eighties, and thank God. I think it would have ruined that. I'll talk about they weren't great. There were some, there were some stinkers and then there were some real stinkers. Um, okay, there was there was one real. I think three of them I could say I didn't hate. I really think that I didn't think they were good, super weird and then, yeah, they were very weird, but I didn't hate them. I think I might have hated Batman and Robert. Really it was okay. We watched this last the thing is every every single one of those movies had something that I liked enough that I was telling I M to freeze. I kind of like, okay, I love I love, I love that, but that cheesy, over the top garbage, if it's presented in a good manner, I like. Hence why I love the Adam West one UM. That's consistent with and and and it was just like the rest of the movie was just so bad. And again, I have said this before when we talked about terminator. Actually haven't done Terminator Everysod, but I've talked about I've said this before in reference to Terminator Three, when Arnold is the best actor in your movie, your movie has problems. True, man, he he, and he did not kill it. No, he didn't kill it. I also kind of was really digging his body Pat I was just about to say. They did a decent job, and that's the thing. I think the visuals for a lot of those movies, I think the visuals kind of saved them, because the visuals for all of them were well done. It's back when he was practical effects and he's literally covered head to toe in like glitter pint. And then mate brought up why was poison ivy not green, and I think probably just refused to she's she's literally just like a normal person that got red hair. Also kind of found Bain with the driver's cap adorable. Like Bain is such such a useless character. I like keep forgetting that he was in the movie and he'd like pop out as the driver and I'm like you're like, oh, we got Bain, he can drive the car. It's like like there was one point where they're like make a make, like make a hole in the wall, and he can't, and then it was like all right, and I don't say why is Bain here? As I was that's actually really good advice, Arnie. Thanks...

Um, but anyways, just thinker. anyways, my introduction to Batman was either were about the same time the tail end of Batman, the animated series and the beginning of Justice League, or my dad watched, like all most of the old shows, shows, like the old classic shows, my dad you know, I've watched like the old Batman. Dad's crazy and like the Linda Carter Wonder Woman and and UH, before my time, no idea. I think that Linda cars wonder woman is the reason that one woman is considered one, up there with Superman and Batman, as they kind of latched onto her and really show. ANYWAYS, we're not talking about wonder woman, we're talking about bloom, the Batman, the Batman something talk about the Batman. So are you a big fan? I Love Batman, and one of the reasons I love Batman is because he's the world's greatest detective. So he's not just like Superman, who's kind of boring, let's be honest, but it's really just like, oh me punch fit spar which you know, I I don't hate superman. I think the Max Fisher cartoons are actually like really good, even though they're like hind your racists and some of them, because some of them are like they these ones are like deliberate because they came out during World War Two. So half the villains are just Vietnamme, no, Japanese, Um, like straight up. Some of them are like actually, one of the one of the episodes, it's a really good episode. It's called Japanters, where they make the super bomber and these Japanese, these Japanese like people, like Japanese spies infiltrate and try to bomb metropolis. Sounds like a fun one. And there's there's one where there's a villain and he's not, like, he's not Japanese, but he's clearly the Japanese, like Dr seuss styled Japanese stereotype, and you're like, oh, but they're still good. I still I still stand by it, like they're product at the time. Understand that going in that there there are there are some offensive depictions of Japanese people in there because we were at war with Japan at the time. It's like they're going to say that about Russia when they look back at the Times now? Why? Well, when facebook said, when facebook, facebook came out and said, Um, we're gonna allow people to make death threats to Russians in the context of Russia and hitting crane, which is a little iffy. Well, okay, so internal, internal emails were obtained where they were like, we're gonna allow this, you can talk about murdering people as long as they Russian. You don't think we're gonna look back at that in like a hundred years and be like, Oh my God, I can't be so and you know, I think it's okay to understand that that's like offensive and the product its times and say still enjoy the concoct so we can grow. Yeah, exactly. Still, I still say. Other than that, I enjoyed this. Separate the art from the artist. Ye, well, the problem in the cases the art, the art from the villain, from the separation that writ the racism from the art. Anyway, I'm still talking about Superman, okay, but yeah, so I think that was my first introduction of Batman and I always liked I think justice league, like it really does a good job of showing you why Batman can run with these superpower monsters is that he is intelligent and cunning and ruthless, Um, and you really like about that about him, but he's also noble in his own way. Um, I think one of the best uh episodes of Justice League, and they did it in Justice League and they also did it in Um as its own movie. It's Justice League booms day doom. Is it just called doom? I think no, no, I think it's doomsday or just it could be justice league. It might be Justice Legue Dodo. But basically the idea is superman is like, Oh, here are all these superpower freaks that could destroy the planet if they wanted to. I have continuency plans to take all of them. Batman Bats. Batman does that is doom. That was like one of the top five animated movies. Yeah, and and in Justice League, they obviously they get all mad at him and they're like you need to leave the Justice League and like how could you do this to us? You know what, if you ever went crazy, and he's like you don't have yeah, it's one of that it's one of the best lines. Yeah, it's I would expect you to stop me right. He literally like did they all get mad at him? Because because they're like why have you created these things that can kill us? He's like, he's like you guys are superpowered weapons. If you ever turned I need to stop you. And they're like, well, what if we made one for you? He's like you haven't. He's like you're an idiot. Like he basically like if you haven't, then that's your fault. He's like you should, and he's so dope, but he's talking to freaking superheroes and he just yeah, and and and, uh yeah, I don't know, I just I just and. And the thing is Batman has so many iterations. Yeah, I mean he was created by Bob Kine in the nineteen forties, I think, like early, like nine, and he was just a trope back then. Yeah, and he became a bit like him and Superman and, you know, a couple of the ones just became these things. I'm gonna go back and read like Golden Age, silver age comics and then, Um, this kind of rebirth in uh eighty nine with dark knight returns or whatever. The one that most both of them is dark knight. Dark Knight rises or something. And the two of them. Yeah, I'm trying to remember who wrote it. He was the guy who wrote watchman. I can't remember his name. Zack Snyder. Yep,...

...it was the snyder cut. That was what it was. Um, Baby Zack Snyder was like I got a guy six Batman. Kop Snyder would do that, though. No, who was the guy who wrote watchman? Anyways, it was that Guy Alan something, Parson Alan Thin. Actually, I can't believe I'm planking on this. Anyways, the point is, Um, I kind of like all the different Batman innervations. Right there's the incredibly goofy, campy early one which a lot of time the camp has kind of been a mainstay of Batman for a lot of Batman, like Um Batman, the brave of the bold, I think as an anime series was such a good set up of this is Batman deliberately campy, super goofy and but it's really fun to watch and I think animated series and Justice League had that kind of the best version of Batman, where he's he's kind of this noble protector where there is a line that he will never cross, but he's super dedicated to his job. He's a loner, but you know he has people he cares about, but he kind of has the fight to keep him out of his life. And then there's like Super Gritty Batman where he's gonna across the edge because he's been, you know, listening to Lincoln Park and putting on his mask era, and I think Zack Snyder is the worst offender in that case, where it's like yeah, of course Batman, because I'm an idiot, I don't understand the character and I'm I'm of the mind that Batman doesn't execute people, right if he's fighting someone and they fall off the building and he can't grab them, yeah, man, it's not going to lose sleep. It's like your fault, dude, for fighting back. Yeah, exactly. It's it's kind of like, you know, it's kind of like, you know, Oh, you pull a gun on someone and you get shot. I'm not, I'M NOT gonna be like's not a victim. Yeah, exactly. Um, but but Batman doesn't like summarily execute people right now. I do have a problem in that. Like, okay, a lot of these supervillains have committed genocide, like genocide scale murders, and they're like jail, and not even like a really big jealous like face Justice Ja. Yeah, and it's like okay, no, like people get the death penalty for like killing four people, four thousand people. Yeah, you'll go to The Hague and the HAG will be like, you are literally Hitler and we will execute you, and they would be they would be appropriate for them to use that comparison. Um, it's like no, you actually killed six million people. You go straight to hell, you know, do not pass go, do not break out, just pass right through the jail, sir, and you just go right over there, kill you, but seven thousand chance? Like no, actions have consequences. Killing thousands of people the consequences. You should be executed. Like. I don't think it's unreasonable. They like an inconvenient time. You better not kill four thousand. Mean, okay, I'll kill three thousand on him, right, nine, that's better. We'll work down to one eventually, after the population has been completely detimarated. Thank you. They give the riddler a jail cell with a view a widow. Right, right, right, right, Um, so, anyways. But anyways, yeah, I kind of love all the iterations of Batman, I think. I think that the cartoons, I think the Adams one is just nearly did my heart because I think it's like such a good it was so funny because used to think, man, they made Batman really can be and then I went back and read the like nineties forty cartoons, I'm like no, no, no, this is actually started exact essence of that and it's beautiful. Um, I think the I think that that made the animated series and the Justice League Show capture that its essence of Batman without being either too campy or too serious. I think the Arkham Games did the best iteration of a Gritty Batman where you know all the villains are there and well done and it never feels goofy, but it also never feels like not Batman. I think we can all agree that that was a superman. Was An abomination. Um, but we haven't gotten limbs thought. But but yeah, so Batman, get out. I don't know, I haven't asked anything. I'm really curious. Um, but yeah, so, I I love Batman and kind of all his iterations. I do think is like Batman would never kill anyone. Like, okay, Batman would never execute anyone, but if someone died as a result of being in a fight with Batman, or if five I was like you have to shoot, you have to kill this person in order to stop them, I think Batman would do that like like if, in a man of steals, he had actually had to break his out his neck, rather than just like pointing him in the direction, like if that had been a real thing, Sax Snyder, I'll hope you're taking notes, and that had been like an actual choice, like a trolley system chice, I think Batman would always make the right choice. Um, yeah, I don't think. I don't think Batman would be paralyzed, like the only the only way for me to stop this is to kill this person. I think he would do it. Yeah, I think so. To read that cool. All right. Well, Hey, Liam, let's hear. Let's hear from you,...

...man. So tell me about you're a Batman Fan, I know that much. I know you're a Batman Fan. Where did that all start? I mean, I love Batman. I would probably say Batman is my favorite superhero. I think that's a take I'm gonna make. As far as background goes, I would say there's like a vague memory of me watching the Adam West with like my grandfather, like it's just like a vague I know I've seen him before, it's been a long time, and I know I've seen them before, Gregg, he's just so young, he doesn't seriously, I'm such an amateur in this field, I feel like. So that was like my first, I felt like a brief introduction, but I will say the Nolan ones, that's what hooked me. Yeah, that's what I remember, like sitting in the theaters and I had to see with my mom, of course, because I was I was eleven years old. So she's I don't know how how much trusted. I couldn't get in with a herd eleven years old. That's how young I was. Like. I remember sitting there and it was magic, cool. I was like this is this is the greatest movie experience I've ever had, and I still look back on that. I'm like it's still might be. Was that Dark Knight or Batman Again? Dark Knight, Dark Knight yet I have yeah, but I think I saw that like not in theaters. I just saw that like at home, like the theater, like I remember that. The place was sold out. I was like this is crazy. I was like I never experienced something like that and then after the movie I was like that lived up to every expectation. It's like that. That was when I was hooked. And you know, Dark Knight, right as I thought, was really good as well. But like the dark knight was when I was like this is incredible, and I think the biggest difference, if that was like that was like the first superhero movie that I was like this is just a great movie. It really was. It's just a phenomenon. That was one of the first like X, okay, that's yeah, the x and the spider man movies. Both of those had already done their garbage one right, right, they both already failed with their third movie. And also, but also, and I think maybe eleven years old, you didn't realize this, but they were better caliber movies in those two movies. I think even I think everybody was noticing that. They took themselves more serious. Well, and I also think that they are also just really well constructed movies, because Nolan is a very good director and I think that kind of and he he didn't. Sometimes the director can come onto a project because they're like hey, big name directors project, but their their heart isn't in it, and you can tell when the director actually cared to to craft the world rather than just being like yeah, just shot some garbage script and makes some money. It makes some money and move on and you know, so like the Lord of the Rings, you can see all the love that Peter Jackson put into it and then then the whole cast it. And I think you can see that with the Nolan is that Nolan decided, okay, here's what I here's how I want to do the Batman thing, you know, kind of taking in a more not hyper realistic direction, but kind of like a more grounded direction, which makes that you can do it with that man, because he was no superpowers involved, and I think it worked really well. He said, okay, let's let's just take these as more crime thrillers rather than, you know, wacky superhero nonsense. And you know, I think he had his vision and it was consistent across all three movies. You know the varying degrees of success. Um, I don't think all those are the exact same level of quality. I think obviously peaked with the Dark Knight. I thought Batman begins was a very good Batman origin. Um, I also saw dark knight at midnight and Pack Theater we were in the very, very back, because the only thing it was an actual dark knight. Yes, it was an actual dark knight when we were in the back, and I just remember when he does the pencil trick, everyone in the theater gas and then there was just like five segments of dead silence in the theater. Um, it's gone, it's gone, and we were just like this movie is a man. Everyone's just like this movie is so good, oh my gosh, because right that the joker is the quint essential Batman Villain and if you don't do that right, then it's not gonna be a good movie. And lets you're just absolutely captivating, unbelievable. Every he was a scene stealer. Every time he's on the he's on the screen. You were like that whole that whole opening with the dark knight is like it's like the music is just steadily climbing that. Yeah, it's like it's just slowly coming in. At the bank robbery and you're you're just on edge your tins because you know, you know, one of them is the joker, and you're like, like, you're kind of nervous, and then he finally takes his mask off. He's like what doesn't killy? He makes you strange, stranger, and you're like Um, but anyway, so okay. So that's what that was like. So that was like, uh, that's what hooked you. was there any other forms other than so the Arkham Games. I gotta give them a shout out. I haven't even made it through the first one. Incredible and like I'm not a typical like. I mean I like, like I'm a fortnite guy. You know, I'm a first persons played fortnite, like, actually, I do know, but like from like a story based video game I don't really like play because, like it's just hard...

...for me to like sit down and play story. Flew through those I thought it was so well done and yeah, just the world that they built was insane. It just got me cooked and hooked and hooked me even even more hooked. Yeah, I was in yeah, they the Arkham Games make you feel like you're Batman. They do such a good job. It's like Batman, stealthy, Batman fighting and then Batman detectively they do they just hit. It's just firing on all cylinders and it does one of the best iterations of the joker and all the other villains are just really good. Um. Yeah, it was just even the last one, which got a little weird, because you're like, oh, now you have the batmobile. So literally all the civilians are not in Gotham anymore, just the scacroles, like I'm gonna gas the entire city and it's like, but everyone's gone and it's literally just your goons you're casting Um, and even that one still has just how May. They just did such a good job. That's awesome. Definitely I definitely recommend you played through so I actually I played through the second one and I played the whole thing and I said, okay, I'm gonna go back and play the first one now, and that's the one I'm halfway through, but halfway through meaning like last Sep five years. I've gone through half of it, but I'll probably eventually sit down, especially I'm Pretty Jones out for Batman Right now. Somebody get back to it. But Um, yeah, it's definitely so that I guess going from city to to asylum the combats clunkier, and it's not. It doesn't flows smoothly, but the story is much tighter and I think I think a silence the best story. But city is really good too, so they're both excellent. Um, all right. Yeah, so Batman. Well, I've never heard of him. I don't I don't even know. I'm definitely I was. I'm a far more mainstream with my Batman Knowledge and backs, back story, but I was also pampered a little bit because my my starting what I started out with, was one Batman, the animated series, which is phenomenal. I was like that was my view of the Batman was. I was kind of like, all right, well, that's that's what it should be like. And then the Nolan movies, right, I remember going to see Batman begins and theaters just my first ever live action Batman experience. Aside from seeing like a poison ivy scene from one of those movies, it also saw in the waiting room, in the waiting room at a dentist's office. I think I saw it in a way over office together. So, like I was telling, dentists were just like, okay, let's play Batman and Robin. Let's just get little kids horny before they come in, because like that's all I all I remember was having like my first sexual thought as a kid. was like I was seriously watching like poison. I'd be like made out with the guard and I was like I was sitting there. I was like what am I feeling? Right, and then they were like Robert, ready for you and I was like, oh my gosh, going on with my body? Yeah, I was like give me a couple of seconds. No, I must have been like, you know, I was a real little and so I was like, I don't so thirsty. I don't understand you guys Um. But anyways, realistically I've never seen any of those movies. You know, I was experienced the you know, the whole Nolan trilogy. You know, was following my experience with Batman, the animated series, and I ain't seen him in games and things like that, but he was always he was more gritty at that point, like I didn't know the Campy, old school Batman before, before all that, that he used to be. And so going back and watching the Adam West one's and hearing a little bit more about the old comics, it's funny to me because, you know, I'm just like why he like he's intentionally one of the only superheroes you can be gritty with, right, like mostly other superheroes you can't. Like it's it's hard to not accept the fact that you're wearing like something ridiculous, like like yeah, like like x men can do a decent job, because you have characters like wolverine that are just like they're just painful, right, and you have it like you have a lot of these characters. CANNA can sympathize with that stuff, but for the most part you're like okay, like let's accept the fact that we look ridiculous for superheroes. But Batman never was like that. And so when I went back and watched the campy stuff. I'm like this is horrible, like like no, but I mean, that's why, I mean it's it's because that was my experience. But so, I mean, obviously I'm huge, you know, huge fan of the Nolan movies. They you know, they hyped me up for Batman big time. Um. But recently me and the thaniel went back and we watched, uh, we watched all the middle, the middle ones. You know. We watched Adam West. I already knew it was his favorite. Again, it was weird for me. He was kind of like a comedy. It is, he's absolutely comedy, but it's but and I said it's all downhill from here, Greg and he was like call whatever, and then next were as good as that. He's true. I was like utterly surprised. The next four movies were just, I mean they were they were confused, like it was like watching an episode of Power Rangers Perfet, you, like like four different episodes of power like like it's hard to even to to like to express what was what. They weren't even trying. It was as if they knew that they made like they were like it doesn't matter, just make him say this thing. We'll make him say that thing, like never, rub another, never, never, never ran's Rubar. Batman, like like, seriously, the joker would just say things that made and seriously, we pause and we'd be like that literally makes no sense.

They just they just told him to make just say whatever, whatever he wanted was. It was kind of like, Um, we're like, okay, did they didn't give way. They're just like, all right, okay, let just but then they're like, Jim Carrey just dubbed beat yourself. And then, and then, for sure, I don't know, George and aaker. They had to give him a script and that's why he just seemed like a telly, telly, like the whole time he would barge into a roomy to be like Whoa, and I'm like what what am I watching? Like he's like you could do a decent job making him, but every time he busted in the room, did it was like they were like and and the crazy thing is like if I, if I had watched those, I think I would have been confused as to what Batman even was, like what he's trying to be. It's confused, like the honestly don't even do a good job in those movies explaining like this is Bruce Wayne, this is like he's a billionaire his parents. That like there's no character development whatsoever. He's just like Batman plays a weird, obscure role in these bizarre, colorful movies that like super convenience. I can totally see you watching it as a kid and being like that was cool, because then have like, to quote drag Nicholson, where does you get all these wonderful toys? Like, you know, I can see, I guess he's thinking that, like that was really cool. But of course we're sitting back, you know, expecting the Bat nipples and all the nonsense and that will type that. But it was really there's just like slightly homo erotic the whole time, like it was. It was bizarre. But but I will say and then Batman Robbin was just a right I will say that's true, though. I will say there, and I mentioned this to you, it's almost like Batman can be done, almost superheroes can be done one of two ways, right, like so you either have to go either have to be the camp be superhero where you're like you're your marvel and you're very self aware and you're like hey, I'm shooting a bow and Arrow. None of this makes sense, like it's just goofy, right, and you can lean into that. You can make good movies that are camping um or like you can be great right, like you have to either be really, really serious or just be completely camped. And I feel like all four of those middle ones were just they were like we're a cartoon, and it was like no, no, no, you're not a cartoon, this is a live action movie. And like the atom West one was like all right, let's be that cartoon, like fully, like lean into it, like grab the Bat, like the shark repellent bats. Yeah, and like it's it's ridiculous. And then you have the Nolan movies that are like no, we're gonna pretend that, like other superheroes don't exist, there are no superpowers. Were essentially in like what looks like dark. Yeah, like they might, but like it essentially is like dark rundown New York City and there's gangsters, like that's that's what it feels and that was that's more like the animated series. Yeah, he said, let's make a mob drama. Yeah, it's usually what it was. So okay. So, so that's all. Okay, that's all. The Post, the Post, the Batman Knowledge. But now, now we're now, we're getting to the ND gree to be the man. Now, now, Hawaiian these. There'll be spoilers ahead. Okay, yeah, if you have not seen the Batman, the Batman runaway literally, never ever turned out the window. What if you drop it in the toilet and I don't access them? Um, but yes, so all three of us have seen the Batman. I actually saw it with each of you individually. Sub Sien it twice. Um, and yeah, let's get your thoughts. Nathanieli's start with you, Mante what, give me, give me kind of like your like. What do you like about it? What you dislike about it? Like you, that movie did not need to be three hours long. Um, okay, so let me just start by saying I thought it was good. Okay, I didn't think it was the best Batman movie ever, because six movie or exists. But even if it was, I don't think it's soup. I don't think it superseded the Nolan films. So I'm like, it's definitely head and shoulders above any of the four, which, admittedly, is a very low bar Um. I think my ranking would still be Adam West, Batman, lego Batman and Dark Knight. That's my top three, in no particular order. In personal favorite, I would put Adam West one, but I think they're they're I think they're both. I think all three of those are great Batman Movies for different reasons. Um, and and and show, like I was saying, like different aspects of Batman and are all really fun movies to watch. And then I would probably put Batman begins because I think it's it's really good. It's not as good as dark knight and I think Dark Knight rises was weaker of the three by like clearly the week. It's still not bad, but I think it was clearly the weakest of the three. And I also really hated the fact that Baine wasn't the mastermind. This was like, so babe wasn't just a dumb job. That's that's that's people that go about actually that's small. Um. anyways. Uh. And also can't understand damn word town Marty's saying. Um. But I would put it. I think I would put it above dark knight rises, like level with Batman Gins. Um, maybe...

...a little bit lower because I think what I really okay. So what I really liked about it is I liked how it dug into Batman as a character and like how he's functioning and how he's seeing his role. Now. I think they didn't do a good job balancing him with his Bruce Wayne side because, like Bruce Wayne said, was basically non existent. Um, he was just bad. Definitely listening too much Lincoln Park, Um but ting. And the thing is, I'm okay with him being like dark brudy when he's being Batman, like I didn't have a problem with that. But then when he's Bruce Wyn he's supposed to have this ficade of a of a billionaire playboy. Um, it's supposed to be a dichotomist juxtaposition of dark, bruty Batman with cheerful, happy, go lucky billion playboy Wayne. Right, Um, and and it's like this is the man, and you know riddler said that, like this is your mask, is Bruce Wayne is your mask. Batman's who you really are, and I agree with that. I thought that was like a good point, except for they didn't show a Bruce Wayne mask. They just showed Batman without his costume. Mom, but anyways, Um, I love that he was like peeping his journal, like they showed that Batman is meticulous and thoughtful, except at the very end of the movie, but they feel like he's meticulous and thoughtful and smart, and I really wish they had had him use more gadgets. Yeah, because he had, he had, he had some things, like he had a taser, things, he had in that wing Ding. freaking. That was the freaking. It was the freaking, like the Sul like, it looks like he put on a snuggy. It was. It wasn't a thing. I don't think about it. It's a snuggy. Yeah, yeah, so it looks like you find a snug and I was like he was a bad snuggy, that snuggy. I was like, well, at least it's nice and war him now, but they didn't even. Didn't he fall on his face right after that smash? I was like that, but I also I also didn't get when he gets to the edge, was like it looks all scared and he's like, never mind, I forgot, I got brought my bad suit snuggy. was like, I think, yeah, I think maybe they tried too hard at that point, because I agree that they try to make it seem like, oh, he's new at this, you know, he's a little scared. I'm like, I don't know if you can convince me that he's scared of heights like that. It's just not gonna it's not gonna be like something they established and it didn't. Never come up with it and yeah, it was like it didn't change it. Do you think like the what about the scene when the batmobile stalled? Isn't that felt like an extension of like he's did you? Did you catch that things out, like like when it rolled, it like rumbles up and all of a sudden like it just are you sure that wasn't just Robert Pattinson failing to shift? Probably they kept it as the best shot. Like, yeah, nobody noticed the Sun. I was like, I I had to ask Liam to I was like, did it stall? was like this was this was right, when he's like rebbing up in the alley and he's rebbing up, revving up, revving up, revving up, and then he goes and it just goes and it just it squeaks and then they almost that. I thought it was just like I thought that was on perfect. It was definitely. I don't puntion was that whole thing was weird. I was like he just was like why did he get into his car to like he and he's the one who's like all right, I'm gonna get your car and then I'll run you, not, like why did he do that? They had guns and then Gunn I got that. But but I hear you and by one like yeah, there were. There are a couple. There were a couple of moments in the movie where I was like this, this feels like a weird decision for all the characters in vault to make just so they could have this cool scene. There are a couple of moments like that. Well, Um, and I think that, but that I think that was the most plate one where I was like this, I'm I don't understand why they got into this car chase other than the fact that Matt Reeves was like we need to have a car chase. And also like that one scene where he like, you know the part like he like there's an explosion in front of in front him and he revs up anyways and he and he hits the ramp, like I think that that that's sick, but it's it's literally it's like almost like the one part that it kind of breaks out of. It's like this. It's like this is a superhero movie. It's not just like your typical crime whatever, because if that happens in you know, if you're watching whatever, the Zodiac killer with with you know, Yeh, with Jake Jillen Hall, it's like that's not happening. Like that happens. Everybody's like what are you doing? Right, so you're like clearly this is a Batman movie. Like he he accelerated into a car crash off of a ramp in the middle of it. Obviously felt like the studio, WB was like, okay, you have to have at least one scene with the batmobile. Um. But I mean that I thought it was a cool chasing. It was just kind of like it's kind of like pod racing and episode one it's like, okay, this feels like it should be in a different movie, like it's a really cool scene. No, no, I didn't dislike the podcasting. We've talked about the podcasting scene. This whole thing is podcasting. You don't remember that part where you just sits this? They're just like we need to make that a button. Now this iscasting podcasting. Um. Sorry, back to the Batman Chase. Back to Batman Chase. Um Again, it was like two really cool scenes that could have been cut out...

...without really losing anything. Um. It's like he could have captured the penguin without even getting it exactly so. And again. Um. Part of the reason I don't get need to be three hours because there there was a lot. The second time I watched the would have liked it a lot more if it was just like tighter movie. Um. Well, I don't like it when it feels like movies are wasting time unnecessarily. I think there are movies that need to be long, and I wasn't. I never felt like, Oh my God, this movie never end. I didn't feel like that. Well, it just I definitely was like there was a lot of fluff. Movies have to be like this is a thing when you're making films, like movies have to be really good for you to enjoy it more than once. Like that's a big thing. The vast, vast, fast, fast, fast majority of movies aren't gonna be that offensive, but they're not going to be movies that you want to watch twice. The really, really, really good ones, a small amount or movies that you're like man, I want to go back and watch that right. And and I think the problem is when you make a longer movie, even if it's good, like that window of opportunity shrinks because you're like it can be a good movie, but it's gotta be a really good movie for you want to watch three hours again. And I noticed that more the second time I watched because the first time, and I mean granted, it got me to go watch it like two days after I watched it's a good on it, but like but, yeah, I agree with you. Yeah, and you know I watched it. I don't feel there are some movies where the you know the movie. To me, when a movie is like so good, I'm like let's go, let's get back in mine and watch it again. That's like a truly great movie. Um, a good movie is like someone else like, Oh, I haven't seen it, let's go watch it. Like yeah, sure, I'll go watch it again. That's a good movie. And then a movie that worked, but I didn't. Didn't took my fancy. You didn't poison eyed any Um in the dentist office. Um. It's incredibly disrespect I'm sorry, Greg I love Um, uh, she got me, got me. We need we need an just a Bi sing. No, no, I don't know. It is the UMB hates that. That was not intentional. Why did she do that? She was just making a vase and sometimes these things happen. For the listeners at home, there's a very vase phallic face. Yes, Um, there is an uncircumcised vase in I might cut that part up. We need, we need a visual pocket. Yeah, maybe, if not, forgive me if I if I that up. Seems very ashamed of it. I'm like, it happens that. It wasn't your fault. It just completely looks like like it's a MINURETT. It's like it's it's it's like one of the towers in Russia, like it's kind of a penis. So anyways, Um, what was I talking about? I'll take over from there. Yeah, yeah, but so, so, you know, I watched the Batman. If someone said, Hey, I haven't seen this. You want to go see it, I'd be like, how much do I like you? I don't feel the need to watch it again. Okay, alright, so, so, okay. Well, so I watched it with you and I kind of got your unfiltered thoughts initially, but I also did the same with Liam and we were kind of both in the same boat when we first came out where we were like. We were both like man, it was really good, and then we s it's slowly escalated to us talking about like maybe a lot of the holes in it. When we're by the end, we were like yeah, why did that happen? When that happened, but it didn't change the fact that we were kind of Jones that like we were like juiced up, like I mean, and I still admit, like maybe you should stop taking drugs right after you watch it or before, but anyway. So, so, Liam, tell me your thoughts then. Tell me your thoughts now, like, like what do you think? I'm a I'm a big emotional viewer. I needed to digest a little bit. Yeah, yeah, you know, it's tough for me to to like we had a great discussion and of course in the movie live theater parking line after it, like you said, it's just kind of like we're like visuals were awesome, yeah, score was great. Wow, that was incredible, and then it was like but, like did this make sense to you? And it was like I didn't love the end. I was like, I don't know, and I think the biggest I think at that point, and I'll kind of speak on how I feel now, but at that point I was like, I think my biggest qualm was the end right. It felt very hopeless, and maybe this says more about me as a viewer and what I'm looking for. It was like he didn't do anything, and that's almost how I feel. I was like the riddler, like I was almost confused at the end when they showed the riddler in the prison cell crying, because I was like you kind of yeah, I didn't think it was a little confused. I was like it didn't hit he realizes that Batman didn't stop anything. I was like that didn't hit home to me because I was like why are you crying? And I tried to pay attention to the next time and I'm like, he didn't know. His plan was just it was. He's like the all flood to this thing and I guess he thought that his coons would...

...shoot more people than they did. I mean, because here's the thing. How did he know? He saw all he saw. He heard the explosions and he saw the flooding. So as far as he knows, everything went according to plant. That's a great point. Yeah, that's a great point. was there like a little TV or something? No, TV, didn't have his IPHONE. Random the entire fit like city. But Um, I also was not tracking. I guess you can talk it up to he's a psychopath. I wasn't tracking with the WE'RE gonna take out the all these crup people and now let's just kill everyone just for fun. Like it was the kill monger thing where you're with me, I'm with you, I don't agree, but I'm with you, I'm with you and with you, and now you're like, okay, kill all white people, like now. You lost me. You lost just like that. But anyways, okay, so, so, I mean that was like my biggest qualm. I was just like, I didn't feel like he did a lot. It felt very much like a setup movie. Yeah, very much like. Okay, they're just buildings towards something, and even like the introduction of the joker at the end. That that that felt. It felt like it was just setting up, like okay, this is got them, oh, it's hopeless, and even like catwoman talking to him at the end where she's like this is gonna kill you, like you're not really doing anything like that's that's how I felt. Like I was like, I'm kind of with you, Kravitz, like I'm with you, like that was Kravitz, it was Zoe Kravitz. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, shout out Kravitz. She's what a wonderful woman. Follow me, I know you're listening. Don't do it. That's how I felt, though, and and, like I said, I need a movie to sink in a little bit and I will say I'm not Jones and to go back and watch it. Yeah, I'm like you said the time of the movie as a factor there, but like I've watched like Lord of the Rings. I'll watch the hindred times over and I don't care how long. That's a hard standard to keep, ever. But if you want to talk about the part of the reason why most movies aren't three hours, because you gotta be really you have to be that for me to like want to continually rewatch it. So, like, I don't know, I'm not like what are like, what it's like on the on the scale of like it was like let's let' Let's create a scale here. We got, we got the last Jedi. Then we have it was really, really, really bad. Going back to Batman. Let's take it back to Batman. Okay, dark knight watched it was instantly like that was so good. I've been watching again right now. Yes, yes, I agree, Batman and Robin. We need to purge Greg's TV with fire, right, cleansu somewhere in between these. So, yeah, where does it fall in the spectrum? Some saying just so I'll get I will give it its due. Props for visual yeah, tell me about something. The good things visually was was really impressed by the aesthetic of it was I thought was so cool. Um, I thought the soundtrack in the score, like all that stuff was like really engaging. So like the First Watch in the movie theaters, I was like, okay, that's three our movie. But like, I guess I didn't ever feel super bored. I just don't want to do it again. and Um, that's kind of where Robert Pattinson, I think, was okay. I don't know if they gave him a lot. He really worked. Yeah, it's like I don't think he did anything terrible, but like he also just didn't have a lot done. Yeah, he just talked very quietly the whole time. He's like he was. He wasn't even giving like a brutish like the second time I paid attention to it more and he was just like everything he said he was just like a nice time, and it's like he whispered that in quieter for me and it's like yeah, yeah, so like he I was okay with his acting, I guess. And you know, I hate to play the comparison game, but like I always go back to dark knight and be like Hey, Andy Serkis, you're no Michael Kaine. It was so funny, though. He's that scene when he's lying in bed and he's like I was supposed to be a foiled to you. You trusted me. I failed, you failed you. Oh my goodness man, I really Michael Kain. We definitely need to do a podcast where you talking about all the Batman movies. But man, Batman and Robin Alfred comes time with McGregor sonk syndromes, like El McGregor's syndrome. He's just like starting to start getting up to try to fight everybody. No, don't do it, you Mcgregor Syndrome. He just starts walking around like this. What's wrong with Alfred? The rest of Stage two starts anyway. Um, but Um, yeah, so I I agree with you. And so a lot of movies that have that kind of vibe. I'm like, okay, I appreciate that. It's supposed to be dark and gritty. I couldn't see a damn thing. But I think they did a good job with it being dark. But I could still see what was what was important. Um, like the fight scene. I thought the fight scenes were great, Um, especially because they were longer cuts, which that was one of the most frustrating things when we're watching the older Batman is it's like punch, cut, punch, cut, punch. I was like, okay, so literally they're just standing here doing that's not even worth critiquing, like they're just it's just, it's just, it's silly.

We didn't even know. But, but, but, the but the CHOREO. I thought the fight choreography is but I think the first fight was like really really good. In the subway fight, I thought the subways fight was really, really good. Um, I thought the fight when in the dark hall where it's all lit up by the guns, I thought that was really cool. Um, again, I wish he had do more of his gadget because like that first fight he uses like his Taser and his and his kind of like that's really cool. It's like Batman's using his arsenal, like he's built his arsenal that would fight, because he's always fighting groups, so he's built his arsenals that he can fight groups. Always say, lean more into that rather than him just being like not punched face, which you know was fine. Um, they clearly failed because, as we were as we know from the from the four movies we watched, there has to be a Ninja character who shows up, swings all the way and things and then just basically can the Jones get shot instantly. Um. So they didn't have that. So at Zero Stars. Sorry, if you tried, you failed. Before we go, what would like your what's your fight so like? What's your if you had to rate this movie? When you rate it? Yeah, it's just like it's just okay. It's like is it okay? Is it Abubba five or below a five? It's a Bubba five. It's about five, mostly for the just like how well made I thought the movie was, like not necessarily plot driven but like, like I said, I think three fourths of the movie I was kind of into. The ending didn't do it for me, and then you kind of opened up some other plot holes. I was like, I don't so it's it's like it's obviously not dark knight. It's not that big begins, but it's not Anas. It's not. Of course it's not. That's a given. Did don't think I need to say that Dark Knight Rises. It's like a little blowed knight rises. How can you do this? This is outrageous. It's unfair. Oh, Robert Pattinson, I didn't Edward so over there. So so. So I'll tell you what I think. So, Um, so, first off, agree, like like, I agree. I'm pretty I'm pretty similar to what Liam said. Um, I think the soundtrack alone so like this. This happens to me sometimes, like a movie soundtrack can really it can turn me into the biggest fanboy of something. Um, like, for instance, I think that interstellar is an amazing movie. I think it's like one of the greatest movies ever because of the soundtrack, right, and I mean, and that might be a great example, because it's already, I think, a good enough movie. Um, I can give you an example of this. So all the Star Wars shows that have been coming out, I've been, you know, middling decent, example, but then I'm like the music is so good, I just want to watch the next one just to listen to the music. It's huge. And so like I'm I'm for whatever reason, I love this new Batman theme, and I'm not talking like the one that everybody points to where it's like it's not just the done done, but it's most of the scenes that he deals with catwoman, and it's like yeah, it's it's like the theme. It draws Socino drew from the original right. It starts off in like which, oh my gosh, those movies may have been terrible, but holy crap, the Danny Elfin scores outstanding. Yeah, I mean way too good for them. It's it's literally like it's when you watch those like Oh, this is where that music came from, Um, but this one, you know, ties in tones, tones from that, from that first score, and he also ties in stuff from, uh Oh my goodness, whatever is the St Night? Yeah, what's the what's the the? I don't know that again. So he also ties in a lot of Hans Zimmer stuff from the Dark Knight series and it's it's just the most amazing score. So like that permeated through the movie like was making me like, like I love that. I was so drawn into to that movie. Um, along with the visuals, I love gritty stuff, right, like something that this movie did and did not back away from was like it was supers it took itself super seriously. Right, like it was no, it wasn't. It was the furthest thing from a marvel movie. It was like no, like we really think this stuff is serious, like if, if the Dark Knight series was the most gritty of the superhero movies, like this is just plummeted it past it. Right, this is like, I mean you're getting F bombs dropped in like the first couple of scenes, like the first scene a guy gets murdered like with, with, with, kind of like it was pretty definitely to have an r rating. And like at some points it seemed almost like a horror like you had the the high pitched squeaks, you have the high peach squeaks on on the on, like the violins when somebody jumps out of the corner and and and it was a very so I loved all of those elements. I loved seeing Batman in that light where he was like he was he was. He walked around slowly, looked at people and you find out later because he's analyzing people with his with his you know, contact, and I actually loved, like you know, it's always like the Batman jump scare, but they had several scenes where you just hear him walking up, so cool. was like subway was the subway and then it was there was like two other times that that happened. I was like that's a really cool thing because it's building the instipation and at the time you'll be like, well, I think that that intro I think it's the Best Batman Intro I think I've ever seen. I think that is the best introduction to...

Batman I've ever gotten. Like that is what I wanted to look like. The monologue might have been a little much, but I do like a couple of the lines. I love how he the contrast he makes with him being like they think I'm in the dark, they think I'm in the shadows, but I am the shadows. But it was like him journaling, like yeah, and I actually really like that aspect of it. Him Processing what he's doing and he even mentions how he's like. I have to remind myself of this every time I come home from one of my runs. I have to remind myself why I'm doing this and rewatch all the footage and so like. That intro to him is just, Oh, he's just so freaking cool. He walks out, he doesn't run, he just walks out of the shadows, and they do a good job at connecting the fact that it's like this is two year old Batman. So half the people are like, Oh, I know what that sign means, and half of them are like, what are you supposed to be? And so like. They do a great job with all those things. I thought the movie progressively got worse for me, unfortunately, and I think I eventually ended up in a camp that wasn't as big of a fan. I don't know if it's below the five or about the five yet. I still have to think about it more, but it's it's definitely floating back and forth. Um, when it got to the point where he's dealing with the cops right at first, I think this is a cool scene, like he's walking through and like just the camera p O v and all the cops are looking over at him, but it's like Gordon's not the police commissioner. At this point I'm like how is he just bringing this random civilian who's not just the civilian like, because I have a lot of motivation to even hate him at this point, because most of them so like there, there, and they didn't explain it. But there are ways that he could bring Batman into the scene in something that the second time I kind of vouched for, like, like it made a little more sense. And I don't know if this is me doing the writing for them, and I don't like when movies make you do that, but he like specifically there was a note that said to the Batman, right, and so maybe this is Batman's first time coming to a crime scene. And that's the case, that's actually really cool because that that emerging into into the room where everybody's turning and looking is you. It's almost like you're feeling the nerves that he is, like, like Batman's probably also feeling like wow, I'm surrounded by cops, this is an uncomfortable place for me to be, and he kind of depicts that pretty well too, and that was so that was the impression that I got was that Gordon and Batman have a relationship, right, because no one else seems to know where the bat single is. Like Gordon knows where. Like it feels like Gordon said the bat single up. He has a relationship with Batman. So like they need on the rooftop and and he's like, okay, here the crime things that are going on, Batman. They share information. Yeah, and so this is like the first time where it was like to the Batman he's like, okay, you need to come to this kind scene, like I need you to meet me here. And and so they could have, I feel like they could have been more explicit in that, but that was the impression that I got. And so, overall, to give more I guess cliff notes before I go, you know, scene through scene and we never leave here. Um, overall, I thought that, again, it's very visually stunning. The whole film in Noir Films, very dark, super serious. Is Cool. At first I really didn't like that they didn't do the whole Bruce Wayne Batman thing, but but you know, I think ultimately I'm okay, like, like Batman comes in iterations, right, and at first I was a purist and like, which didn't make any sense because in my mind it was like like I just had this worked view, or it was like, oh, like the Batman animated series, like that's like some guy, let's call him like Charlie. Charlie, wrote Batman and everybody else is just interpreting it and they're not doing it right if they're not making it like that. And I didn't realize like well, no, Batman has been made in like a million different ways. He has been campy, he has been gritty, he has killed people, he has not killed people, he hasn't always been the same, and so I'm kind of okay with being like, all right, let's see which, which kind of Batman you create. And so the it's like that's why I think it is. It's like here's the here's are the key elements of the story that you can't change. Right. He is from a really wealthy family and he became the Batman because he was his parents were murdered at a young age and channeled that energy into becoming Batman, like and and the the exact nuance of that has changed depending on who's telling the story, right, like in in the in Um, in the Michael Keaton one. The joker is the person who killed his parents, right, and some of them it's just some random thug. In this one it was probably, they say, like indie circus. Yes, says it was probably. If howcome, but he can't verify. Um. So, but you know that the idea that well, his him being an orphan. Is Why. And of course, now, I think the point of the movie. There are two. There are two morals to the movie. Um, the first moral is you can't be vengeance. You have to be more than that. Okay, that was that was a lesson that the Batman learned. It took him three hours, no watch. And the second lesson was if you're an orphan, you need to become a supervillain or superhero. There's no just like normal orphan foster parents and they're great. Actually, that doesn't happen. Like at at Yale. You're you're delusional's the...

...only two possible outcomes. So so again I was I'm more okay with that. And one other thing that initially kind of struck a nerve with me that I didn't like. So I initially didn't like that, but then I said, you know, that's all right, and I also didn't. Initially, I think I misinterpreted the ending where he's like you can't be vengeance as as thinking that he can't be that at all. Like Hey, you know, you can't go. And here it was almost it felt like. It felt like the line from t LJ, from the last Jedi, when roses like you don't kill the people you hate. You hate the people you're you love. You can't. Don't kill. Don't fighting that you hate. It saving what you love. It was like it's one of the worst lines. It's it's literally the worst. It's the worst line in all of cinema. It's like, so, how does that change any of your actions? Like yeah, so your sister who at the beginning of the movie was attacking the enemy and heroically died, she was wrong because she was fighting what she hated. Or would you interpret her fighting is saving what you love? Go ahead and ridden me that, you stupid character. That doesn't any place anyways. Everything like man, they hold. I was like no, I'm glad. I'm glad. They flushed rose down the part that so they literally sidelined her and I was like trying to get off of last Jedi before we just Um anyways, what else is there? That's that's what it felt like when I first watched it felt like that was the line, the message they were sending at the end, with him being like Oh, you can't be vengeance, like it's like like he has that big realization moment where he's like he jumps out and he cuts the wire and he almost has like this baptism, comes out of the water and now he just wants to help people. And like, I'm I was laughing the second that I watched because it was like, Hey, they're in this flooded area and he brings them and I'm like, I'm like Batman, if I'm being honest, anybody could have done that and like, honestly, those people could have done that themselves. And then he's like he's up on the roof and he's let me, let me grab this person and give them to an e m t person, like Batman, anybody can do that. And so when I first watched it, I'm like, if the messages, I can't be vengeance, I have to do these things, like no, that's so like. That's why that one grinded in my head and for a little bit I hated for a little like, I know it's it's only it's been brief that I've watched this, but for a little while I was like this is the worst movie ever, and then after it really was, because, really, even after we watched Batman and Robin. Well, because if that's the message, the messages, you can't be Batman, you can't be vengeance, you have to be hoped, then I'm like, well, no, that's this is the worst Batman movie ever. Batman is vengeance, and the second one I slowly like I realized a little bit more. He wasn't saying abandoned vengeance, he was saying my idea of becoming vengeance, which I've been so far. Everybody even calls him vengeance, right, because that's all he does. Hey, who are you? He says, on vengeance, and half the characters call him vengeance there, like hey, what's up, vengeance, like that's penguin calls him, that's what the catwoman calls him. Um. But at the end he was like it's not really working, like everybody's still corrupt. I have to be more than vengeance, I have to also be hoped, and I'm like, all right, I can get behind that. Like and it didn't look like he was saying a band in the punching and the fighting, what's like whatsoever. He was just saying and he'd add some more like it can't be such a depressed, sad boy, and I'm okay, that makes that actually makes more. I'm okay with that, and I think that was like the point was, and that's why he had the Bruce Wayne, the very small Bruce Wain bits we had where his conversation with the mayor of like you have all this money, you can be doing more, and Bruce Wayne is like, I don't you know. When he's talking to Alfred, he says I don't care about that life at all. And so I think the lesson for Batman was he was like, oh, as long as I go beat he stugs up. That's efficient. It's like no, you have to go the further step, and so I think the subway seem kind of highlighted that, where he beats up all the dudes and then the other dude is good, the guy he saved is like don't hurt me. He's like whatever. Ended it's like walks away right, whereas at the end of the movie, If that Batman had done that he would have been like help right, and like they and they accented to with like he beats up the guy at the end and the guy at the ends like I'm also justice and I was gonna I was gonna ask you guys about that. Is that was that supposed to be a realization? That was supposed to be him? I think it's his realization that you can, if you're just vengeance, it can be bad or just that motivation can be better used by anyone. It's like, how am I different than this? And that's why, initially, when I thought, when I saw it, I was like, are they just saying vengeance is always bad? Because that's that's stupid. I don't like I think that's a silly line. But what I think they're saying is that if you're just vengeance and nothing else, you could be bad or good. And he can. And so he said he's like, oh shoot, I have to be more than just the image of vengeance to scare these people, because I'm also kind of scaring the good people, like an example. I think that was that was his. So I think that actually was. Those were strong points in the movie. He turned from like this is horrible to actually I was like no, that's pretty cool, especially because if he's two years old, he's growing in this and so he's like, okay, now I'm going to become more the real Batman. But there were still a lot of but, you know, I think it was you know that when he met the riddler, that was his come to Jesus moment of Oh, I kind of inspired this by saying, look, I'm taking the long in my own hands, just beating that's not other people who I see as bad guys, and that's what riddler was doing. And so...

Batman's like, Oh, I need to also be setting an example of yes, I'm being the bad guys, but I'm also I'm also benevolent, right, I'm not just a ball of anger running around punching people. I'm also, you know. But that they didn't accent enough was he was like, I'm not killing bad guys right, like that's like I think that's where the Nolan Batman was so quick to be like, you know, what I'm doing is right, what you're doing his role right. Let's like. The movie made that very clear and this one's kind of like, oh well, maybe, and I didn't like that and it always I didn't like that, and I think Nolan the Norman Niling, because was like we're the same and and then Batman's like, uh no, we're not, and you instantly get and I talked to to Liam about this after the movie. Right. So, like the big thing that, and this is this is the most disappointing part of the movie to me. I understand that Batman's young, right, I understand. We're gonna get development. They did a decent job of this, although although the flying off the building scene where he hits his head as a little intense, like he should. He should have been dead of dime, like like like there's not even I don't care what kind of helmet you have on like that. That was an absurd like it was. It was it was comically. He slapped his head against an overpass flying off of a building and then he was like better go walk and I'm like so, like again, I like, I know what they're doing right when they're depicting that he's young and he's making mistakes, but like he's that anyways. But you still he still needs to be Batman who wins, right, like, like, I'm sorry, and and and this is it's hard to explain this, but I'm doing my best. The movie either needs to show you and represent that Batman actually lost and that this was a big point, like, like empire right, like, like, like, like a return of the empire. Like, sorry, was that one? That's not the woman Dondre, for the Empire strikes back back. The Empire strikes back ends on a very low ends on a very low I bet you like the last Jedi. But the movie reinforces the fact that this is not good. Right. The movie doesn't pretend that that's good. The movie's ending with like happy music and everybody's running off and they're singing with the JAWAS. And wait, there's also a note of hope because they find Lou and there's clearly another movie, but this one. It almost ends like we've done it and you and you're confused because you're like not only did everything, and maybe this is maybe the only thing that didn't happen, if it really wanted to happen, was that his thugs didn't shoot as many people as they presumably did. I mean they probably shot a lot of people. We're gonna assume that a lot of them got shot, but you don't understand is that this was actually like the secret trailer. Oh sorry, my personal friend Matt Reeves told me, and they forgot to put this in the end credits. They forgot to put in the scene where it's actually a trailer. My Boy Matt, Maddie Maddie Ares, I call him Um, he forgot to put in the scene where it shows that it's just a trailer for Aquaman too. That's weird because we saw acuband two as the trailer to this. Let's go. He just pokes his head up and he's like but, but anyways. So, so this whole movie right has been like again, like everybody, everybody says I like seeing detective Batman. I did too. I like seeing the problem is at the at the at the end, you're like he's the worst detective ever. This guy is an idiot because, okay, all he did was solved pretty seeming like like he solved riddles instantly, which was like wow, I was impressive, but like there whatever, their riddles, and then he trailed behind riddler the whole way, which riddler's smart. That's fine whatever. In these movies right, in reference to the Nolan once again we have Batman trailing behind the joker at times and telling behind Rachel Ghoul and he's kind of doing his best to keep up and and and trying to get in front of but at the end, what happens? He beats him, right and he usually wins because he has hope in Gotham. Like that's kind of he's like, that's the backbone of his character, and I'm not saying that this iteration has to be exactly that, but it kind of seemed like riddler was like no, Gotham's corrupt, and he's like all right, like let's let's go start here. This is the next target. Boom kills that guy. GOTHAM's corupt. WHO's this next targetlet's go get a boom kills that guy. Gotham's corrupt, and you're like alright, so he's kind of just cleaning up Gotham in a really brutish way. Gotham is actually corrupt. You haven't pointed to anybody good yet, except for comically all the minority characters. Are the good characters, right, like so like it's like is it? Is it? Is it any? Is it any? Like like like coincidence that like catwoman's black and then like the new chick running for governor's but and then Jim, Jim Gordon, the only uncorrupt cop is black and all the other white people are terrible. Bat Cat White, and then and then even even even catwoman's like throwaway line where she's like it's all these rich white people that everybody cares about, and I'm just like alright, like Oh, you know these crime words. It's white privilege. Like what does that have to do? Their Crime Lords, the shoot people who...

...don't. It's not like and it's so sad because, like it came on the heels of such a good line by Batman where he was like he was like she was. She was like, Oh, you're not gonna help me kill this guy for my friend? He's he's like your friend, like their actions to her consequence, like like their consequences to her actions. And she's like how could you say that? And I'm like, okay, that's the most sane thing anybody could ever say to like criminals. It's like I'm sorry, like like that's obviously sad. I didn't want your friend to die, but she got involved with the wrong people, like like like their consequences for her actions clearly, and she's like it's just these rich white people and I'm like how is that a response to that? Like anyway, I won't I won't harp on that for long, but like by the end of the movie it's just seemed like one the riddler has killed a bunch of corupt people in Gotham. Batman has not done anything about it. riddler comically has a really crappy, clunky thing device for Bruce Wayne and it doesn't kill even Alfred and it's like, Oh wow, you happen to do the one really embarrassing thing to like all the other ones were like amazingly thought out and like he just killed these people. He just like beats him over the head. He sneaks into his house and he beats about. When when we actually see the riddler, it's like freaking Jamie Fox before he became electro hyper nerd, like pasty, pasty. How did he climb up into his sky like he had to? Like you, you climbed a four story building and snuck intrough this guy's sky without he noticing. That was pretty stealthy. Like clearly you have some physical chops or you just have like a stealth helicopter. That's just dropping you in. But then he gets the next guy at the gym and he traps him in the weird saw machine and then and then he gets in the back of the guy's car. And then for Bruce Wayne, he just sends him a letter and I'm like that seems wildly convenient. It seems almost like it seems like that character might have had plot armor. That's why he blow up all that plot armor. I was I was expecting like Alfred or or to get kidnap. That's I thought that would have been interesting. Like he goes to capture Bruce Wayne and no, shoot, Bruce Wayne is actually Batman and this is gonna be a lot harder than you think, and that becomes an interesting scene. But instead it was like, I'm gonna send you a letter that's gonna blow up and it's not even gonna kill. Like, were you really afraid Alfred was dead? No, I was not, like I was like okay, no, it's gonna blow up and even and so I'm like, well, that was really silly. This guy's a super genius, has captured all these people and he was like, well, we didn't get Bruce Wayne. I'm like, you sent the guy a letter and it said please give to Bruce, and Bruce Wayne didn't even open it and you're like darn, and these things. You know, he's so wealthy he has to have servants. I mean, like, what a silly concept. And then and then, yes, you mentioned it briefly, like how did that turn into? And then my final plan will be to blow everybody up. And it was like it's like, what are we watching? The like Batman had to be like and like I was just confused because again and again the tone of the movie was just like and now he found out the plan. I'm like, Oh, he's finally gonna stop his Big Ball. Okay, he didn't stop it. Now now what do we do? Only found out the plan because the COP who happened to be there happened to know that that thing happened to be a carbon removal service, which is an oddly specific thing, specifics of knowledge that you would only know if you were in that business, and this cop happened to have an uncle who knew that, and that the cop literally hated him until two seconds later he's like what are you doing here? And then he's like, oh, by the way, that's a copet clean whatever the cops of the real heroes. Do you talk about some of the accents? When the one guy, it's like Jim before my Jim, Jim Water, and it went the wrong I'm sorry. Jim Gordon in that movie was just just useless. I'm sorry, especially the second time. He literally is like he's like a frat boy following every scene he walks into. He's like he's like Oh my yeah, Jeez, what man, he's little, like a Damian was following around. He's like like he literally every scene. But again, like he just trove me. Okay, take it back. He walks in and he's like Christ every single scene, or he says Jesus, one of the two. And then and then he goes for very religious with his with his confused face. He's like did he does make any sense to you, Batman, and I'm like how did you get a job? Like you're useless, like you're and then and then the scene where he's like you're gonna have to punch me and run away. I'm like, all right, listen. First off, that scene makes zero S. I'm so sorry, like give us the room. That scene makes so many things about that that might that might be the biggest that might be the biggest plot hole the whole movie, because the problem is, okay, you have a civilian of whatever stature, he's a visually any whatever. He gets blown up by a bomb, he gets blown up by a mom and he's on the ground on...

...contract. Everyone understood that it was on the neck and he was just like yeah, and they all and they all grab him and they're like quick, bring him to the police station, to not arrest him, just to lay him down. Nobody was like take him to the hospital, he's dying. Even Jim Gordon at that point would have been like yeah, I kind of like this guy. He's he's for sure not doing great. He took a have a bomb to the face. Let's get him to the hospital and let's try to completely he wakes up just just in like an interrogation room, I'm assuming a some kind of room, and they're all just kind of looking at him, nobody's taking his mask off, and then he gets up there like Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, whoa. And that's the thing. What are they doing? Why are they here? And that's the thing that made a very little sense that the Gordon was not the commissioner, but still clearly had some position of power. All the cops when he would tell them, the cops, even the cops, they listened to Gordon, even the dirty ones, which is like, like most of them were corrupt, which is the which is the biggest reason why it doesn't I didn't understand was right. He sens the leading into the club with the with the eye things, and it's like tagging all the people. It's like, damn, it's this person and that person, this person, and then doesn't just like give gordonfied like, oh, by the way, all these people are dirty. Right, it did. Video evidence it him, like I did feel okay. So one of Batman's main, I would say foundational things, right, that you can't change one of his superpowers if he wills, that he's uncorruptible. Right, he's not like other superheroes. Batman is uncorruptible. It's part of the reason why he thrives in Gotham, which is so corrupt, like it's one of his deals. He doesn't. He's not corrupt at all. He seemed a little fishy in this movie. He wanted he walked in and was talking to the penguin about certain information and literally saw a drug deal happened in front of his face and he he didn't even bat an eye lash. He was just like he looked at him, grabbed a huge wad of money, handed her this huge stack of of of drops and she walked out of the room and then he continued to talk about what he wanted to. It seems very much he was gathering in nation, right he was. Yeah, yeah, I guess, but I just like it didn't seem very Batman. It seems like it seems very strange that whole that whole scene where he walks in, he beats up a bunch of people, but then he gets to the penguin and then he's fine. I was really expecting to be for him to say, you really just didn't do that in front me. I mean, I mean it was yeah. And to get back to the cops scene, and this is what confused me. After that cops scene, he's fine with the cops. He goes and takes the guys right this, right that. That was really weird. Okay, so it was so funny about the cops scene is he's like running through the which is massive, like stupid big, and it's just like piles. Yeah, this is just it's just still like a wave of cops, just like flowing. It was comical, just like it's just like the Matrix, like it stampede of people, just like there are no cops on the street. They were all in that room just not taking his mask up, just staring at him, not take him not one of them was like this guy's probably this guy is probably gonna start smelling, like why, why did we bring him here? Did anybody think to bring him in the hospital? Like that was the strangest thing to me in the so to go back to what I really liked, when when they were like, oh, Batman's meticulous and and dedicated and a little bit Um, not psychotic, neurotic about taking notes and going back over the events with his eye cameras and all of this to make sure he doesn't miss a thing right, um. And then for the rest of the movie he is purely reactionary. He has one step behind riller the entire time. And so probably okay. So Penguin, why was he in the movie? Catwoman, I understand her role. They're romance. Even the second time I was like, where's this chemical from? It came from nowhere. Um, especially considering that they didn't have any conversation. I mean some random dude in the mask like Um, anyways, well, okay, this is but but where was it going? Right, I do not like Gim riddler and he's just like yeah, I hated that. Well, but the riddler in this movie is just a plot device. All he's doing is moving the plot forward. You don't actually see him into the very end of the movie. So he's not actually like other than when he just mysteriously, you know, Ninja appears behind his victim. He's not actually a present in the movie and I think that this is this is what these movies struggle to do and and it is it's a it's hard. It's hard to do this when you're trying to take because Batman's villains, although Batman can be a gritty character, in the comics and and and and and in the animated series, his his villains are some of the most colorful strange villains of all. Like like, and the hard thing is that, like, when you do Batman, you think, okay, he's a human, so we can make this personal and gritty. Doesn't have to be supernatural. But...

...the problem is when you're dealing with human villains, LIKE WITH WITH NON human villains, you can make them however you want. It's not that absurd to see a purple alien walking around in a gritty universe, like whatever, like like it's it's an alien, for all we know, that's how they look. But when you're dealing with like real people dressed like like, like the way the Batman's villains are, where it's like his villains are the riddler, it's like it's it's it's a really, really bad guy who makes riddles. It's like it's like all that sounds good until you say that he's making riddles, because then what you're left with is we have to make him crazy. You have to make him crazy, and that's what all the villains end up being. Joker. So I'm gonna Spoil a major Batman's story. Okay, Um, there's a Batman story called Hush that's regarded as one of the Best Batman storylines movie and Um, I don't know the movie, but basically, like someone is going around like doing these horrible killings, Um, someone who knows who Batman is, and it turns out that it's the riddler and Batman's like shocked he's you were always kind of just the goofy villain, and it's like this big twist of riddler was like I figured out who you are and I was sick of being this low key criminal and not beating you. Right, because the riddler's whole motive is to prove he's smarter than Batman, and this is like the riddler figured out who Batman was still couldn't beat him so resorted to this and then in the end he was like, I regret doing it. So it's like a really, really interesting emotional storyline where where riddlers like goes outside of his own weird code of I just want to prove I'm smarter than Batman. Um. Well, which is what which is what this riddler, neither this riddler nor Jim Carrey riddler really captured. Was it's it's it's intended to be, and I was really hope. That's what really I hopes for the riddler in this one, because it's supposed to be a battle of wits. It's a chess game and riddler is willing to put people at risk and break rules and do things like that, but his ultimate goal is to show that he is smarter than Batman. I thought that. I thought that, out of any of the characters, you could try to make it happy, because like somebody who I thought he might be a lot of a lot like, and this is I know this is one of your favorite movies, is is almost something like a Hannibal Lecter. Right. So Hannibal is as menacing as they come, but he's very calm when you talk to him. And like, there's a great line in the movie the Red Dragon, which is the third, I think it's the third, the third movie in that trilogy, Um, where, if you don't know, like that one follows the detective who actually put him in jail in the first place, before Starley is whatever meets him, Um, and so it's about him putting him in jail and then having a case of his own where then he has to go back and he's having like panic attacks because he has to go back and face him. And so he goes back and he's having this conversation with him and they're both geniuses and they're going back and forth and he's like well, Um, he's he's like stopped like pampering me, like you caught me, so you must like me, you must think that you're smarter than me. He's like, no, I don't think I'm smarter than you. I just, like you, just had disadvantages, and he goes, what's my disadvantage? He's like you're a psychopath, and they both just sit there for a second and it hits. You're like wow, this well put together guy, he talks very eloquently. He really is a psychopath. And I was like you can do that with supervillains right, like you could have the whole movie somebody like that playing the riddler, who the whole time is talking very like and he's not afraid to show himself, but he knows he's smart. But at the end of the day you have a smarter guy on the other end, and I was like that scene did it really well on the Red Dragon, where you're like every time that Anthony Hopkins was in the room, it was like, okay, you're the smartest guy in the room, even with clarice, like he was the one educating here the whole time, and this is the first time where you're talking to the detective that caught him, and so you're like, finally I'm in the room with somebody who's just like him, but he's good, like. That's his advantage. His advantage is that he's not crazy. He doesn't want to eat the people he's charting. So he's like so all of a sudden, and so that's what Batman would have had over the riddler, who's, like the riddlers, a genius, but he's crazy like like and in this one they just they just made him the joker again. He was just the joker. He was just like, AH, I grew up man, he could like it was like every word that he went to say took twelve minutes to say, and I noticed it more the second time where he was like he's want to say things just like and I'm like, Oh my God, get through what you're saying. But anyways, I think it's I think it's hard acting. It's it's hard to make such kookie villains either not campy. I think it's like, again, when you're either doing campy or or gritty. If they're gonna be Gritty, they all like they all have to just have the mental problems, and that's so. That's why I think and and Batman begins, I think does this as well too. But ARKHAM assignol point to the best example of this is they make the villains, obviously they keep out some of the stupider ones, but they make the villains like legitimately menacing. Um. So you know, like riddler is insane and desperately trying to prove yourself to Batman and getting more and more frustrated as you beat his riddles. Um. And you know, jokers insane and kind of running the whole thing. Then you have Rachel Cool, who's doing his own thing. So every everyone's everyone's got their own things and they're like overlapping spheres of their or what they're trying to accomplish, but they're all really all done and and menacing. And scarecrow is one of the best.

In scarecrow there's like a whole horror element that, because of scarecrow, which again Batman's kind of does the same thing, is great. It captures this horror element of this, must be honest, kind of ridiculous character but makes it into this pretty terrifying thing. Um. So ironically, I think I'm I'm not being biased here at all. Don't don't even start with me, Greg Um. I honestly think that that the Adam West Batman had the best riddler because right, if you remember, probably agreeing, if you remember, he keeps sending the messages and all the other villains are like pole just gave it away our possession, like why, why do you keep sending the riddles? They're gonna find us, and he's like, I have to. It's me versus him. I have to send these riddles. It's it's like his whole race is that he wants to send him a riddle that he's not gonna get. He's gonna Stump the exactly, and they kind of somewhat inverted that where it's like he's reaching out to Batman, like Batman is just like me, you know, I'm he's a kindred spirit, so I'm gonna send him these riddles and he'll crack them and, you know, it's like this is what I like. Imagine a scene like this. Imagine that the end of the day, riddler had this big plan and it got stopped by Batman and Batman is standing over him and he's got his foot on his chest because he's Batman and that's awesome, and he's looking down at the riddler and he takes a few deep breath and he's like you had me beat like why did you give me those riddles? Like like why did you give me a chance? And the riddler would be sitting there and looking up and saying you don't get it. He's like, he's like, you're you're the only reason I'm doing this. If I'm not smarter than you, none of this matters, something like that. Like that, that is a compelling that's a compelling Batman Story, whereas this one was mainly like, it mainly felt like a movie about the development of of of a detective, and then Batman really played no role in that movie. And this is and then to go back to the ending, well, what I want to do at the end, right before, right before we get off, is I want to do a thought experiment and I need your guy's help. I want to try to figure out if he took Batman out of it, what the movie would have looked like. I'm pretty sure it would look the same. I'm pretty sure the same exact stuff. What happened? Continuing before you jump into that, that ending was not good. Um, it's like so therinder does everything he wanted to do, let himself get caught and then he turns himself and it turns himself in and he's like, oh no, Batman, you didn't figure out my master plan and I almost wanted it, like, oh, I don't know, doctor, it's like doctor, like ridiculous, like Bro, it was not consistent with his character. All of a sudden, just flood everybody and, even though you're not as smart as I thought you were, I guess I just blow up the whole city for no reason. And again, how did he know that his plan didn't quite get all? For All he knows, he's watching, looking out his window, watching Gotham flood. He Won. Yeah, maybe the prison guard told him. Oh, by the way, Bro, the population is dead. How many people died from that flood? It seems like everybody. Well, everyone's, everyone's come to the stadium and it's like people on the roof. What's the population of New York City again? Millions. And See, you saved that little that little boy in the mayor. Yeah, white privilege, saving another white kid. Alright, let him die. Alright. So before we go, let's let's do this thought experiment. I want to figure out what happens if Batman doesn't doesn't isn't in the movie. So it's okay, if Batman's if Batman doesn't exist, riddler doesn't get inspired, the movie doesn't happen. Okay, Al Right, next question. Okay. So, so this movie happens and Riddler, okay, riddler does his first death, okay, and he has the clue to the Batman to find a thumb drive that ultimately posts the pictures online. So let's say here we have Batman doing the riddler's dirty work. That made me angry because, like any I t guy would tell you, don't put that USB drive in anything that's connected to the Internet. FREAKING idiots. I was like, wait, I thought he just had this laptop. Gordon, just being a job. Okay, so tell me if this, if this guy, resonated with you. It really felt like it was a movie that was set in the seventies, but everyone had smartphones right, like the field of the greats and everything like it really felt like it really felt like that, that vibe of a really old movie. That's a good point. Actually, accept everyone had smartphones. Yeah, it's like a mob. Yeah, I really thought everyone was like walking around with Tommy guns and freaking okay, freaking penguin is literally just like, yeah, who's this guy? Over here. You needn't need to be in that movie. Okay. So it's okay. So Batman doesn't capture. Obviously, see riller does his first murder. Batman assists him, with help of Dumb Man Gordon, to post all the pictures online. He's in. He's in the red. So so, yeah, get it right now, he's done. He's literally, he's literally. But here's the thing about that. Like even if the police like it's like, oh, it got sent from forwards personally email, like that wouldn't matter. Press...

...that's still run with that right. Oh Yeah, Gordon would be canceled. Um, Um. So then Bam he he hits the next guy, the D A Guy. The rats his face and the next clue is Lata Alata or whatever. Um, doesn't say that guy. Okay, so he's going and looking for the rat. He goes and has this huge scene with the Penguin, Um, and the penguin is like, you guys are idiots and you can't speak Spanish, and they're like. I was like don't you guys freak to speak Spanish? Don't speak in love that. Gordon's like, is he right? Like he's just like they're both so like they both look like the pronounced. They both just looked like kids. They were sitting there like they looked at each other and they're like, dude, we just did we grab and then he's like is a penguin a rat? And he's like, Um, I guess he could be, but you're not saying the big like Sot. Right now, Batman, Batman is still huge in the red until finally, okay, he it's like, Oh, you're an orphan whatever, and then he has a scene where the guys get the bomber around his neck. Oh, maybe he'll stop him here. No, blows him on. Um Okay. So right now Batman still has done nothing. All Right, so I'm waiting for the I'm waiting for the Batman and joker moment in dark night where he's like, all right, all the people in Gotham route to blow each other up, and then they don't, right, and the bat and sticks it to him and he's like my faith in Gotham is what beat you and like that's okay. I'm waiting for that, waiting for that moment. Okay, I'm waiting for the payoff with all this build up. All right now, um, okay, he catches the rat. All right, we got the rat before the riddler could gethim. Okay, wet. Oh, wait, no, this is his plan the whole time. He shot him. Oh look, okay, okay, so now I'm in the red even more. Oh and now he turned himself in. It was a it was a police officer that took him in. It wasn't even Batman. Okay, so now the riddlers captured. Okay, well, maybe now Batman can go and talk to him. But so Batman goes and yells at him. No, no, you're a psychopath and I don't like you. It makes really they're really mad. But riddlers got another plan the Batman isn't no about. Batman is gonna go figure it out. So Batman figures out the plan, and then the plans still happens. And so the plan happens, and now he goes and save some of the people that weren't drowning anyways, like those people could have walked in that water out of it anyway. And that was the end of the movie. I'm pretty sure he did nothing. Yeah, that's where it's like. It's not really. It seemed like the first episode of a Batman series so three hour. So I thought. I honestly thought when he when he was like confronting riddler, that that was a play. But no, that was just him coping. Like no, we're not the same. Like no, you're not the same, Batman. You haven't been murdering people. This is what what if this is? I've always just like so frustrated when when when the villains like we're exactly the same, and the superheroes and just like I don't kill people. That's not saying this is not comparable. That's what I was saying. The same, because you punched a guy to foil bank robbery and I shot an old lady in the face. Same, like no, we're not. It's like that's where the guy on the ground at the end saying I'm vengeance at the end. It shouldn't have bothered anybody. Batman should have rolled his eyes and like no, you're not, you're you're shooting innocently. Do that. I beat people up and I beat people up who are hurting innocent people. That's not even close. You shouldn't be like, oh, we're the same, I can't be vengeance anymore. I was like no, that's stupid, like and again, the point of the movie, as far as I can suss it out, is that Batman realizes he needs to become a symbol of hope and not just a simple of vengance. Because like the whole point at the beginning of that Intro, which was really good in effective Intros, like Oh, the bad guys see the bat signal and they're like, oh no, is Batman in that shadow, and I thought was really good. But then they didn't really do a good job showing like how did the people, like the general civilians, feel about Batman? We don't have the cops, but the cops are like hey, you're muscling in on Turkey's of vigilante. Blah, blah, Blah Blah. All right, it makes sense why cops would be antagonistic towards him, but they never showed us how do the people feel about Batman, other than the fact that the one guy was like I saw him. It was like, please, don't hurt me. That was the only hit they gave us. If they had done some stuff like daily Bugle, like I want pictures of Batman right and us what the public opinion on Batman is, it would have made a lot more sense. Like Oh, I need to become a hope rather than just another thug. Yeah, anyways. So I guess in conclusion, I would you're making me feel like it should below. I think. I think for me it's it's definitely below the NOLANS. It's just not a complete movie. It's a little. It's not a little, it's it's definitely too long. It has an amazing score, it's shot amazingly well, it gives you all the feels and like there's some scenes that are super powerful. I mean I mean like the scene where he looks over and he sees the kid who's just witnessed the murder and you can already tell and it does something Meta. Right. So this one is kind of like the spider man, like the new movie, where it's like we don't need to show you uncle Ben Dying because, like it's it's Meta. We know that you guys have watched two spider man's already and it goes, okay, we don't...

...need to show you the scene of of you know, like the parents dying, like you just we just we know that you did that. But in that moment where he sees him, it's like you're reminded you're like, Oh, this is Batman, like he's been through this and he's sitting there with his again, and I think this, this iteration of Batman connects really well with the like heavily deep sighing stare where he's like and he just looks at the kid and he knows. He's like this kid's been through some ship and like so have I, and he's just like everything else stops and like, and that's why I hated the freaking part where like the politician chick at the funeral is like, you haven't really been doing anything and you need to give me some money, and she goes, let me go pay him my respects, but I want to come back and talk to you. And I'm like, you're a funeral, you're at a funeral. That she would turn out to be the villain. Yeah, I'm watching her, I'm like. I was like he doesn't seem like a pleasant person. I was like that was such a like, like you are such a gritty, ugly politician to be here at a funeral and like Batman is like ignoring her, looking at the kid and he's super concerned. Is like that's what he relates to. He's like I like, I want to go comfort this kidding, do you guys? He saves him Um and at the end we're supposed to be like. At the end we're supposed to be like, oh, she's the future. In reality, he needs to go and pay her money, because you don't think she's just also another grubby politician, like maybe she's not corrupt, but she's a politician. Like, screw her. So one thing that and it may have been it may have been the riddler being over dramatic, but when he's like, Bruce Wayne is not the same as me. He grew up, you know, billionaire playboy in the Ivory Tower Arch. Yeah, he did. It's like, Oh, US orphans, we've never had enough to eat, and I'm like, okay, I'm sorry. I'm really sorry. withdler, it must have been difficult to grow up in an orphanage and the freaking medieval ages during an outbreak of the plague. I'm sorry, description of the orphanage of like eating. I'm like, okay, sorry, that. Yeah, again, I didn't realize that you were in like war torn Europe in World War One. I didn't really grew up in the trenches of the SOM like I'm really sorry, man. That must have been really difficult. I just didn't but in America we have rules of what orphanage. It wasn't the First Jab, though, at Bruce, like I didn't like the lighthearted treating of his past, like that's always been a heavy thing right in everybody in the universe he wrote or villain. Everybody kind of acknowledged that Bruce has been through some ship like he watched his parents die. He like, yes, he grew up with money, but he didn't live and like nobody wanted to be him. Like like he it was rough, like he grew up in a lonely mansion by himself and had a lot of deep problems. And in this movie it wasn't the first time that people made jabs at being, like Oh, you don't know what it's like, and I'm like no's he's the one. He wrote that does don't even like Catwoan was like shipping all over Bruce Wayne, like not knowing. Obviously she was talking to him, but like she was like so anti. She she was like she was like Oh you, you grew up with money, didn't you know? And I was like I'll come on, and I think that's one of the things. Is like, you know, there's still this idea of like well, if you had enough money then none of this would be a problem. It's like, okay, we have physical, scientific data that says unless you're below the poverty line, in which case, yeah, having more money trends with more happiness. But as soon as you get above a certain threshold, which is a very low threshold, it's enough to feed your to feed yourself and and have and, you know, have a roof over your head. As soon as you're above that threshold you get you start going down. The richer you are, the less happy you are. So it's like, well, being a billionaire did not, does not mean he had. Maybe he had material things and access to certain things, but that means nothing for him as a person in terms of the emotional distance, and that's one thing that I think most iterations of Batman have captured well, is that Bruce Wayne struggles to form relationships and it is very bad at it because, a he's been isolated his whole life, partly because he's this philanthropist, billionaire playboy person who, like you know, how can you be sure that people are just getting close to you for your money. And also he's so scared of losing people. Um, that he that he's scared to me and he mentions that. They did mention that with his his moment with and circus um where he's like, I thought it was like a few behind when he said eight together strong. Um, sorry, that was an Andy Circus response. He just grabbed his hands. He's like man, these bant and and uh, and then he grabbed the brain from I love you, Andy Cirkus, but I can't see you as anything but a CG character. But but they he had that moment where he said I, you know, I'm not afraid of death, I'm afraid of losing people I love. And so, you know, I thought that was a good moment, even though it was because of the ridiculous like well, I showed up for all these other people, I can't be bothered to go to Bruce's. Man didn't work the bummer. Well, I kept thinking that he was going to try again and he just never did. I guess he was like, well, I got one shot and whoops, there's no there's no possible way I could make it. There's no possible I can make another attempt on his life. It's not like he didn't suddenly I didn't. We we haven't talked about at all. Is, and I think they wanted this to hit hard, is the scene where you think that he's figured it...

...out. You think that he's figured out who bruce. That was such a weird way you think. You think that he's figured out who, who bruce is right, like, like, that's why, and they're like so. So He's sitting there with Gordon and he's looking at all the pictures on the wall and it slowly starts to lead you to believe that that riddler's final thing is going to be exposing Batman. And then he even says that. He looks at Gordon and he's like, I think his last targets me and I think this whole thing is about I think it's the end of the Batman. Yeah, so the movies almost over? Yeah, yeah, yeah, he goes, he goes, he goes. I think it's the end, the end of what the Batman, and then then goes credits. Yeah, so the Batman is about to end and then so. So then he goes there and of course then he starts saying it Bruce Wayne and he starts talking whatever and then he's like we almost got him and then all of a sudden you can see it in his eyes and it was such a weird say if you weren't like Hey, audience, I'm gonna lead you on. Ye, like like that whole scene was just I don't know, like I didn't. I don't think it hit hard like I think, and think as a result, we haven't even mentioned it and I think I'm watching it and I was like so is this? Was this supposed to be a one off where they went, went, went, did the full cycle of it, drove like Baby Batman to bat nightfall, all in one cycle. Um, but I mean like it seems then I'm like that that scene prior to this where you were telling Gordon that you're about to go down, it was like useless. Why? Gordon was like Hey, what was all that talk about him? I don't know. I just he didn't. He didn't figure out who I was. I thought it was man. He's D I said the end of the mispronounced. It's the end of the show that's recently off the air. Is the end of the game of thrones. Like it was really bad. He agrees it was weird kind of yeah, it was like it was out of nowhere. We were like, I was like, why did you grow those people? was like, I don't know. Also, it wasn't game of those season. Really bad. Yeah, it was so bad, really disappointed, like I don't know. Anyways, I don't right. Yeah, yeah, it's it's again. So I didn't walk out of that movie being like Oh, what's so good? Okay, final thoughts, final, final thoughts. Didn't hate it. I did like a lot of the ways they portrayed Batman. I really liked hated the fact that he was after that. First I thought the opening the movie was really strong. Yeah, yeah, also, just kind of didn't fulfill on the promise of that opening. Um, Batman was really reactionary. The Catwoman Romance was stupid. Um, I didn't I thought her charger was fine, Um, but the romance part was was not doing it for me. Um. Also, their little sexy motorcycle race was really weird. Uh, it was doing it for me. Do It for me, Um, Penguin, I you know, I thought I thought Colin trolls was the fine job, but then after you know now and then thinking about it, I'm like, did he actually do anything in that movie. He was literally just like a front man. He again, it feels like there was a lot of stuff that was kind of sequel Bait. Yeah, the most agreedious. Well, they've already announced that they're doing a penguin spinoff series. Ferrell. Yeah, they're gonna make a TV series with it. Already interesting. He just hated when they do it that quickly because then you just know it's just the Ching. It's just like, oh, they liked him, all right, cool, ranking serious, and I'm like green lighted. Yeah, you guys see you got a castle's joker. Oh, yeah, they announced it's the Little Irish guy, very coggin. Yeah, he's in the eternal is the Irish kid? No, yeah, the Irish kipping the internals. Actually, he's. He's an amazing actor. I don't know how he's going to be as like call and Lanky. Yeah, he's young too, like he's young and like, well, I Guess Heath Ledger was young. When I was listening to the voice, I was like this joker is a babe. Were we were trying to figure out who was. He said Dave Frank. I thought it was Dave Frank. Got A bad it sounded like it. It sounded like him. Now like knowing. It's very coggy. It's like, okay, what know? You just leaning over and he's just like hey, how are you doing? When? Who, then, is he? I was running way. He hasn't had any UFC fights. We're gonna kill them all. You'll D guy, that guy. Yeah, so I thought I had some really good elements. It was one of those movies where I thought there was a lot of potential they did not fulfill and there were some really cool moments, but overall, probably won't watch it again. That's how I feel too. I don't know if I'll watch it again. I First Watch got a decent watch and I enjoyed it and we had a good time at the movies. No, it was well worth seeing in theaters right, for sure, but that's I think that's the extent of it. I would also like to mention that, at least I don't know what you guys think, I feel like we're in the minority as far as our opinion on this movie. No, I actually agree. I've actually been doing that recently. I'll go and see some movies and be like that was fine, and then watch the Bos and everyone's like the suicide squad. I was like everyone's like it was so good ncent, like that was not a get out of here with your garbage opinions. Like they were comparing it to the other suicide. I was like, I was like, if you're...

...like doing the side by side, then absolutely this is if you're talking about like an objective skill. I was not a nine, six and that was like a seven. So what I'll say about this movie is there's a thing that you can do in movies that's like a lot of movies struggle with this. Um I'll do my best to explain it quickly, but it's like if a movie wants you to feel a certain way but then, if you think about it longer, didn't actually do that thing I mentioned it earlier where it was like you want the audience to feel a certain way, but then, if you analyze the information, that didn't happen. You're like, you want the audience to feel like this, and this happened. I think this movie was like it was like the like the quintessential version of that. It was like, Hey, we're gonna make it really impactful, the music is going to be intense, the visuals are going to be studying, he's gonna be really, really serious. So when you're watching you're like, oh, yeah, this is gritty, this is Batman. Oh He's so dark and he's so dope, and at the end you're like yeah, and you walk away and you're like that was and I think that's why everybody that is a casual viewer it's just like it was so amazing, it was so good. But because, and I think that because usually this doesn't happen. Usually I'm just like I'm super nitpicky and analyze, and I was even starting I felt like I had ivy blowing that dust in my face. In the beginning I was just like this was so cool, that, like the batmobile seemed so great, all this stuff. And then slowly, as I just looked at the information a little bit harder and I was like, I actually don't think that those things made any sense and like and then I watched it the second time. In the second time I was like, Oh, big time. There's there's a lot of there's a lot of confusion, there's a lot of lucky things that happened, there's a lot of like we just want our audience to feel this way, so that we're gonna we're gonna make them feel this way, and I'm like, but that's not actually what's happening. Like like, like there's no information that tells us that. Like Batman is. You know who you want us to think he is. But anyways, I uh, I don't know. I'm gonna need a big break from it. I've watched it twice. I'm glad I watched it in theaters. It's worth seeing in theaters, the visuals and the sounder studding. You need a break from it. We're up to Nolan Baby. We got the good stuff now and then we have to watch the worst, worst work for everyone, which is, yeah, Mar Um. But I would say I think I'd probably, after this discussion, probably put a little below an maybe just below a five. It might be right on a five. It was just there. There was some there was still some good elements. It's still gonna make you feel certain ways and it's just hard. I imagine trying to show a friend and being excited about it and thinking, I don't know if I want to show you a three hour movie, man W and, and for that reason I think that it might even trickle below a five. But it's right around that area, very neutral. Yeah, and I was like, uh, if you want to Hartom, I'm good. I'm good, good. So it's so funny because it's one of those movies, like a lot of movies, when you think about them, the plot hole start to appear because when you're in the moment, a lot of stuff is forgivable. Um, and then when you start to think about it, you're like wait a minute, wait, wait, wait, wait a minute, wait a minute. And what's funny is like dark night joker's plan. It's just it's just bonkers and like it's meticulous and like everything is a exactly woman but and there's so many points of like so many possible points of failure and it just miraculously all works. But when you're watching the movie it is just captivating and you don't even think about the fact that so many things need to go right. Like it doesn't bother you that everything is gonna absolute perfect a line. You're just like, yeah, it just works. Um. This movie does not do that. This movie does not captivate you in such a way that you're that that the holes don't appear until you're way past it and thinking about it. It's not, not for me. Um, again, I thought there were praised. There are a lot of praiseworthy things in that. I think it's a good take on Batman, but I think it was honestly, like, I love the direction they went with them. Like I love, like you said, like the journaling, gritty philonoir investigator type person. The problem is he's this one's supposed to be accent is investigating him as a detective and he was the worst detective. I mean, Gordon, were literally just morons running around like like, Oh, do you think we we read it wrong. It was literally like bill and Ted trying to solve a mystery. It's like a buddy buddy. Oh some drive Um. But anyways, overall, go see it. Go see it and, uh, see it in theaters. It's worth seeing in theaters. It's big and it's it's worth seeing because then you might not ever want to watch, you to get outside of the and will I watch the second one and be excited about it? I will be excited about it. I think the sequel has potential to be better because they've gotten all the fluff out things. So too, I believe. I believe, and if it's a two hour movie. No, that is a good that is a good point to make. Would I be excited about a sequel? The answer is yes, very excited about a sequel. Like I didn't, I did not get that with B vs at all. With Batman Versus Superman, I was like, you've killed DC. This is awful, Um, whereas now I might not have liked the way this story went, but the universe they...

...created and the Batman they created are both potential. Yeah, a lot of a lot of potential. But did you hear about there? They're going to release the snyder cut of the Batman. There's only one difference when they're in the club, and that strippers on the pole. They unblurred the butt, the only difference. That excited. Yeah, that was it was so funny because that whole scene when he's killing he's like beating up to do in the car, which he didn't even kill him. It's all blurry and obviously that was intentional. It was like, I wonder if it was. This was supposed to be unblurry and then like even like just wore it like a stripper on the pole whose whose asses in the air the whole time and it's just blurry and you're like this had to be intended to be ore. And they were just like how do we peat to thirteen? And they, and like the first reviewers, are like guys, they're like seventeen boobs in that movie, we can't do this, and they're like the whole alright, well, sixteen, four boobs and three nipples. Two of them are Batman's Nipples. All right, blew out that ASS. Okay, two games. It really does. Some of the shots. It really feels like they kept putting it back with this just too much like, okay, we'll blow out the strippers, asks will blow out this Dude's head getting stove in, even though he didn't die in that one. Um, is that good enough? Yeah, we're okay with the guess it was. Yeah, there's some interesting directive decisions there that that really, to me, felt like they wanted it to be our a. The studio said, it's Batman, it's our flagship. It has to be peak with their team to hit the wider's audience. Yeah, but yeah, overall, overall, overall mediocre. I think we all kind of we all after passing around the ball. I think we all kind of landed on it being right around a five not all that spectacular, and I think Liam actually nailed I think that is kind of a hot take right now. I think people are eating so people are losing their mind, at least from within the people that I've talked to. Maybe I'm talking to some. I saw one facebook post of a friend of mine that said, hot take, I didn't think Batman was very good before I saw it. So that made me think that that wasn't that wasn't the main mainstream thought. And it's funny. I loud like, and I told you this and I want to have into it. I was like on the train of thinking this could be the best, this could be better than old and Nolan, but like, I am so on board with us and so drawn in and by the end was like you just missed it big time and it was way too long. There's a funny it's a funny conversation with the Movie Theater Park a lot because we were like, we're like, who was the we were live time realizing. Yeah, it was really was like we were so excited. By the time we got to our cards, you're like, oh, yeah, and then by the time we actually left we were both like maybe that wasn't that good and I was like that that I don't think you're like. I was like who was it? Who Was Chris? Chris Farley, right, like if of him, he's just like he's getting angry and angry, like what did you do that? That's like how I feel about it sometimes, but it's it's true and I think I think, yeah, as trying to think of how other people are thinking about it, I've really do think they're swept away with how griedy and just kind of like cool, it was like right now it's a critic and eighty nine audience. It's really high, and suicide squad was like that's plus for both one. I'm like really, I think it should go down after people watch it more and it should go down in the future with people just realizing it's a three hour movie and like that's got you got to lose points there. Sorry, anyways, h where can people find you, Nathaniel? Uh Yeah, I'm on twitter at Holy Golem. I tweet like once a year, if that's literally before we started doing the podcast. My only tweets are retweeting me, posting deally debated on the debated twitter kitchen chemist or kit chemist, but literally, I had tweeted in four years. What are the other things you plug yourself think about yourself? Well, I had and Greg and I do the kitchen chemist. We're on a not a hiatus, but we're on a slower uplake. Greg's just got insane busy right now. People wanted another taste for we've got to, we've got to, and then the works. They were green screens too. Yeah, Oh, yeah, I just haven't got around though. Oh, that's right, I forgot. We Greens. Boy, I forgot a green screen. Those, there were some fun episodes. And Yeah, those were those were actually those were truest tastes where we actually had some really good stuff pop up. Yeah, I I end up like I actually went to Super Gine and got some more ting. It's so good. All right. So they can find you where from? You there, uh, there, there, and there. Um, yeah, it's this podcast, it's kitchen chemist and my twitter. If you want to see someone who never tweets. Um, if you tweet at me, I'll probably respond. Well, you can find me. The most active place I'm on is through my work on facebook. You find me at chapter one films. Uh, you can. I mean if you really want to follow us on Youtube again, like the Handel said, kitchen chemist. The kitchen chemist on on Youtube. And Uh, that's pretty much it. You can email me if you really want to, but you don't have to personal contact information. I'm on Linkedin, just in Maxwell.

If you want to connected thing, just Liam. I'm the only Liam on there. I'm the Leo. I Am v Liam on Lincoln. I think my mom posted a highlight volleyball highlight video of me on Youtube. So for those for those of you don't know, for those of you who don't know, Liam is like a professional level volleyball player. Actually. Well, for those who don't know, is this first time on the podcast? Nobody knows. This crazy for those of you listening. For those of you who don't know, which is we don't know the backstory. They already knew. They were just like Greg we everybody knows everything. They saw the notification that was like, Oh, that explains it's not. There's no way they would get Liam Aswell. They're they're way too small time. Is that? Well, I feel small time and may reiterate, well, well, I hope you enjoyed your your experience. You're a daily debated and you're always happen. We'll have a thrillers episode you can join us for, like where we just go over Michael Jackson's thriller video. I'm told that as well. Yeah, dancing. All right, well, everybody's until until next time. Oh No, okay, so that's something I've been forgetting. No, no, this is something I've been forgetting to do at the end of episode. If you want to contact us, we have twitter at you said me, Greg Okayan. Question find us at dearly debated on twitter and dearly debated at Gmail Dot Com, and I think we have a facebook group that nobody's perfect. See the be the first. Be the first. God speeds by it. Wait, I don't need to say it and have God speech by the man.

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