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Dearly Debated
Dearly Debated

Episode 9 · 1 year ago

Episode 9 - We Actually Had A Debate

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

IT'S ON Y'ALL! Greg and Nathanael have had it too good for too long and newly promoted Regular Contributor Ashley Thomas is going to put them in their place, one way or another. Nathanael says 'hot take' too much, Greg executes a one in a million maneuver, and Ashley saves what she loves!

Ta Well always start a fight guys want to fightwelcome to a specialepisode of dearly debated where you're entitled to your opinion. Even if it'slong it's Aday, we will actually be having a formal debate. As we havementioned, multiple Os, reallthdokay, formal issu to bay ox, but I'llexplaine. How I's going to work? It is they're both wearing basketball, shorts.Sa ECI, no you're both wearing suit you're, both wearing Tuxedos with pophats, do know when Ey cimproves that it's not work. That's Ju, not true. Sowe've mentioned many times greg and I on the PODCASTS rour disdain for thelast Jati, which was a devisive film, and obviously you know if you like thelast yet I that's not a bad thing, but you know other people don't have tolike it. So we may end up. You know we may have this debate and neither of USchange your opinion. You know what that's okay movies are subjective. Artis subjective, so you take want you have your take someone elses ther, takerespect their respect, their opinion, even if you disagree with how theyperceived it, perception is different from different people, so, but we don't,like Glastyedi, actually loves the last, yet I so so we're going to hash it outa little bit today and just to clarify, I mean the debate, I mean it. It'sobviously not going to be on like whether we like a film or not it sh Iny, like finer points of the theobjective values, unlike grtiking a film there. So so is there like theinconclusion not being like? Oh No, no, no, WE'RE NOT WR! I like you, don'tlike it and that's not what we're arguing o okay, okay, we're arguingabout like wh. What what did actually like that, we didn't like you,thsethosewill beindividual topics, part objective parts of the movie that wehave different takes on I'. Assuming I see I haven't actually hashed to stylewith you, you greg have so it was also a long time ago. terlyremember: It was e a little bit broken like it was Kindo like there's alsomore to likt. Now that there's other movie to talk like Tru, I tis'll be agood for us too, like a a good good rehension in the kitchen, it wasn'tvery formal. There was food being eaten between many. If e Ar Gre you werewearing. I was also well. I think that Masyou Automacicalyin Te Idon't K W. I wis asess eleven fromStranger Sake, so she definitely deserved some credit fors alright, butbefore we get started as always this week in history, maybe orjulythirteenth and nineteen thirty, the first World Cup takes place in Iruguai,oryb Argentina. Two one in the final Feva was forced to pretract the prizein later issue, an apology and a real trophy after it turned out. The initialprize was a red solokcup filled with molt liquor on and ninehundred, andeighty five new coke debuts to great public outcry. The FDC and the FAissued a joint statement condemning the product stating coke is Damnd lucky theHAG is busy or we bus their ask for craes against humanity. COCACOLA,withdrew the product in the FCND FT retracted their comments in favor of aless profane statement and happy birthday to Sir Patrick Stewart, bestknown for traveling back in time, Tor the twenty fourth century and using histeleconetic powers to help people around the world. I'm pretty surethat's what happened. His favorite beverage is earl, grey tea, piping, hotand he regularly shapes his head. Otherwise he would grow in the words ofmcellan, a truly astounding, Afro, so happy birthday pets. Do I love you ndEnesir, please TAT me. I love you. Pe Patrick Doers, like a great Guy Tecard, pretty good, pretty good turnedeighty todayyeah, which is yes remember when the icebucketchallenge was happening. Hen made mgellegarunge and he sits back in hischair, leans forward. Writes a check, puts it down and takes a SIPO sky because, like Chriicthe hole thing I'slike Oh, you have to donate or dump the bucket of ice, and so he's l Ke sittingthere ith a bucket avice nink to MN looks at it. He just writes ITN, take osip of Scoth ter te Manyeahat's fun all right. So before we jump into ourdebate, actually I'm going to ask you the T, the two kindo opening questionsthat we talked about in the very first episode go Lis. Do It if you haven'tjust what was your first introduction to stars? Let's try to keep this brief,so we coand jump into the Shir to the debate. Bu, okay, first introduction tostar wars. I was maybe eight years old. I rented Star Wars from the PublicLibrary because I come from a I'm Teloerin, the familyof Rednic, so neither of my parents are...

...into star wars. My sister is not intostar war, so I had some friends that wereallic star wars was awesome, so Iwanted to know what they were talking about. So I borrowed the vs tape fromthe library and I was Ou, didn't point to Hantsol and be like look he's one ofyou. No, I did not. I did not that was loston me at H for but N. I I, after that, I just plowed through all the availablemovies, which were just the orirginal tralergy at that time. Okay and whatwere your first impressions of the sequels of the seque engal children, Ostarting with force awaken, okay, rogue one Andsola, are kind of their ownthing right, W we're not going to talk about this. Are we not going to Attochon prequels at all? We just just Pan, but we're focusing on, because our debate is focused round thelast gen? Okay, so Um Secuel Turilogy? I was really fortunate. When the FORSEwacens came out, I was in Grad school at the time. forthose of YOU Wyo, don'tknow I am a graduate of Sicnam University, which is a place where youcan get completely online. You can get a masters in literaturn language andthere's several different concentrations, but I chose theimaginative fiction program, which is effectively a masters in science,faction, N fantasy. I got to take the very first offeringof the force of Star Wars taught by my professor, Dr H, ter Jus, susas she'sbeen teaching about Star Wars for quite a while, so amping up to the forceawakens. First of all, I would have been completely happy if we never hadany more star wars. Movies, I felt like we had a complete story, but I mean obviously I'm not upset that wegot Por Star War's content, obvously yea, I honestly I was excited, but I Ihadn't been in this boat of like whonare they're, going to make do starwar right right right. I I was not expecting it to happen at all, soleading up to the release of the Force Awakens I got to take an entiremaster's class, a literal master's class on Starwars, which I think ispretty cool m. So we we read a lot about Um, the history of the films weread about how they influenced genrae. We also read some of the nowdecanonized novels. We read, I think, there's some interesting theories aboutwhy those word decanonize in the main one is that it removes the barrier toentry. Also, there's like the very technical thing of flight, gettinglicensing forever sure I understand that. But if you talk about bar toentry was ther, I mean if Youve never read the books, it doesn't matter right.It's just like here's more star wars. Theoretically, but especially with likethe air to the empire, which we read the first one in that trillogy air tothe empire was, for the longest time considered the unofficial officialsequel to the original trilogsure. So there's that we read that we also readthe book that led into the last ee, which is the first official cannonnovel by Chuckwindig, and I am blanking on the title, but we all hated ish Y,perfectly fair, sorry have had the title right here. I can re have y phonthe title EA. What is Itand Rasehem my Newmpi Oyway? I was this one SA o theJetia there Yo go idon't think that wast all her Ka Kepgoing to gon all oncivilized. I remember the name of the aftermath.That was the name of it Aema a was that meant to bridge son, the GEE for Wakens.I forget exactly where it occurs in within the time line, uh it SA set soon after the events of thereturn of the get. I so n s not long after that, but it was never and O tobe far to Coele, be completely far chuck win. Dig I read later that theman was given about a month to write the book which nobody's going to writet the novel. If you only give them a month, surew it's going to be right, right, Ey,but apparently the other Um there was a. It was a trilogy of books that he wroteand the other two were better so but anyway, so all that to say, I felt likeI got a really cool, deep dive into star wars before watching the force, aWakends, and I think that may have influenced my interpretation of theforce of weekends. I think you know something that to kind of counter whatyou guy said in that initial pive cast. I think you have to think of the forcea Wakens as both a reboot and a sequel, and you have to think about them inthat context. Together, you can't separate it as this is just a sequel,or this is just a reboot, because I think you're not going to be happy witheither one understand why they did what they did, and I wasn't too unhappy with with that.Although I again, I really think they could have done a little B, a littlemore creative than just it's a death star again right, but really what? Whata again I I don't hate the force Wecens, but I hate that the characters thatthey set up, which I was like, oh I'm, excited to see what my caracers do had.Ultimately now that were done had no parl. No, no, and I totally agree, Itotally agree and I'll touch on that. Whenever we get talking about the riseof Skywalker, ultimately I really loved...

...the force awakends. I didn't think Iwould ever like another star wars movie as much as I liked anything in theoriginal trilogy and I actually really loved the force. AF weekends. That muchso that was kind of surprising to me all rigt. Well, less you've been tothis debate last Jed I so yourself's going to work. You both Goin to give anopening statement, obviously that just iterates your stance. So, for instance,if you were talking about cabbage, actually would say cabbage es and ahomination and should be destroyed and and Greg would say, cabbage is the bestfood stuff has ever been made, and- and I love it- O Obot it I'm beingfacetious to explain how this wors and s keep it to one o two sentences andthen we'll start by one person will make a point. An the other person willmake a counterpont Yo a two minutes, each an I will be keeping time andbetween points I might throw in something or Calification, but we'lltry to keep it point. townerpoint and we'll start with actually giving apoint. GRT. giveing a counter point, then Greg you'll, give a point andactually yo'll give a counterpoint, and I have a couple of points here for youguys just think about whatever point you guys went to bring up so just thepot in general, the idea of it as a deconstruction, holdose plan casinoworld- I don't remember the actual name and to ite H, race, training, Lukethings, snoke thing, the whole Ralo thing. So any of those major plotpointsthat were really devisive or you know, even if it wasn't avice of anyone tobring it up so just like something that informs whyyou like it, and why you don't like it and so d point counterpoints. So itstart with opening statement, ashly, Ky, so opening statement about the lest jet.I two main things. I think it is structurally different than any otherstar wars film today and I think I think it as both a deconstruction ofstar wars and an anversion of the empire strikes back. I also think thereare two phrases you can kind of focus on when you think about the last jeteone is in terms of deconstruction. This is not going to go the way you think tothe entire film I think, is themed and centered on it's not fighting what wehate in saving, what we lofe Bregg building sayements on the last J last.Yet I think the last t I tempted to do a lot ofsurversion and probablyattempted to be adeconstruction of Star Wars, but in my opinion well not in myopinion, I think objectively did a really really poor job at trying toaccomplish those things and left way too much to the audience to write inthose gaps and also failed to exist in an established world. That's alreadythere because, like you, said on top of being a reboot, it is in fact a sequalof not just one movie but exists in the line of several movies that haveexisted for a long time and has to operate within these boundaries thathave been created, and it fails to do that in many ways, all right so withthe cards on the table Ashley. Your first point: You have two minutes beginokay, so I effectively so I watched the last Eai again this afternoon and I Isat down and I basically because I was just so struck and I'm personally movedby the line- ISS, not fighting what we hate in saying what we love. I thinkyou can break down from the beginning of the film to the end of the film in,in the ways characters try to fight what they hate and then they learn fromthat and then how certain characters also save what they love like. It'sit's, this dicotomy of love versus hate. Are you acting in anger, verses? Areyou acting in love and out of care and protection for other people to o give aspecific example in the Movi um so to take one from the very beginning. Po isall about attacking attacking attack, and we got. We got a defeat. The firstorder he's all about fighting what we hate he's like. We have thisopportunity to to take out of dreat knot in the veryfirst scen and it caught this desire to fight what he hates causes him to be abad soldier. If you are in a military setting, you follow orders and that'swhat you're supposed to do in of line and he effectively becomes a bedsoldier because he is all about fighting what he hates. I think Holdois a neat counter to that, because she and we can discuss the semantics ofWasholdo, sacrifice ultimately necessary, but within the context ofthe film we are given the impression that this is the only option, so shechooses to sacrifice herself to give the resistance a chance to escape sofor her her intention, even though ye she's taking out a huge ship, it's notabout fighting what she hates it is saving what she loves she is givingherself in order to create opportunity for the resistance to escapecounterpoint. I think it's a really interesting point and obviously hingeson the line given by Ros at the end of the movie right. She says if t e, it'ssaving Ale love. This is really interesting to me just because at thebeginning of the movie, you have rose's sister doing that exact thing rightlike she is called out to go and fight and there's this emotional connectionthat she has with her sister, although the writing doesn't really give theaudience a chance to to get into involve with that, because we haven'tmet either ot the characters. But right after that we also see rose. You knowtelling fin that he's not allowed to...

...leave into the point of shooting himright. She shoots them and says you're a coward if you you're going to try toleave. This is a resistance by the way, like Li e, I'm not sure if this works,like normal army, like you're, going to be killed. If you leave, but it's kindof the theme I'm getning like I don't know if she's been giving those ordersor not, but she kindof plays this role of like no I'm a soldier and I'm hereto fight these people, my sister tought and died for auginably. What is goodand then to counteract your point about Po. Essentially, although we 're madeto believe is the audience that what poded was kind of arrogant, he savedeverybody, because if the dreadnot was there, what do they do? They they beblastedin t a light, speed they get tracked and then the dreadknot destroysall of them. This is the inresult and instead Po goes out and he drops thedreadnod. He comes back to the ship and is ridicule for it and tin they're inthis high speed chase, to which none of these ships now that icebe, the chase right. So obviously, l, the termthat that that rose, kindo coins there at the end is is definitely interestingand it provokes a lot of thought. I just don't know where it lands, while Imean even when it was given, I almost felt like I was being trolled becausein the background mean you see them blowing up. Presumably all of otherfriends bet we're not. We Disn't known that people are dead, but you canassume that people died when the ship, when the walls behind him explode. WhenFinn was trying to do what her sister did, which was sacrifice herself tosave what she loves Ho saving, what she loves through self sacrifice- and hereis ten attempting to go and do this and he stopped and therefore people aredestroyed and we have ra come in and say the day like normally happens butyeah. I don't necessarily think that that translated to a lot of theaudience because of the writing, all right, Gregg point m all right. Well,I'E got a lot of points to make M I'll start with one just because it's verybig, it's it's lokes assassination, just as a character, and what I want tostart to say is: Let's say before this whole movie started: If you're, justlike hey, lokes character, just gets assascinating he's, not a cool due bythe end of the movie. People would be upset. Obviously, but if you do a goodjob writing this, you can be upset and say. Well, I didn't like it because Ireally like Luke, but they did a good job telling the story, but instead we get this kind of thrown on us withvery, very little like, like so you've gone from Luke Skywalker, who the lasttime Ywe' see in is as episode six right. He he's one of the biggestexamples of hope in cinema history because he takes on one of the greatestvillains, most psychotic destructive people ever to Existis darthbader heenbodis, evil and Luke doesn't beat him because he's stronger doesn't beat himbecause he's fast, if he's not 's a better jet, I want a light saver. Hebeats him because he looks at me says I have got hope in you. I've bet hopethat there can be change. I know you're better than this and he throws hislights. They ere down to the point of self sacrifice and he starts to bekilled and it works. DARTHATER picks up the imperor and kills him or so wethought suddenand and then so now now we'vearrived at this Luke Skywalker, who is a hermit rikt? He's he's not the onewho recklessly helping his friends and ready to self sacrifice for his friendsready to help the people he loves, even when they're doing evil like Darv,vader and heis hiding. Now we need to know why this is right as an audienceyou'r like well, I'm realy upset this his happening. Pleased O o a good jobat writing, OUP why this happened and we find out from him that he wastraining Jeddi and he had a dream that his nephew caused some pain anddestruction. So for a second, he thought about killing him in his sleep.So this is a really extreme position to take for a writer and again it's notsomething that I would like as a fan. But if you do a really really good job-and I mean Youve got to do a torrential job to to make Luke Skywalker thepinnacle of hope, tenr into that, and in my Opinin Wel, not in my opinion,but objectively, they did a really really poor job, developing thatcharacter, change 'cause. It's such a huge change of all of a sudden he'sjust bad. It kind o felt like they just needed him to be that way in the movie,and so therefore they had to create something in, like maybe two minutes ofscreen time: counterpoint. Okay. So while I can certainly see how youarrived at that conclusion, I would also ultimately argue that that line ofthinking allows no room for Luke to make mistakes he's still human he's.Not Jesus Hehe's going to m still make mistakes and their end ultimately makethese poor decisions. Now. I think also one of the problems that I think Disneyleaned on or created with the the sequel trilogy, and we talked aboutthis a little bit that the Um there wasn't enough done on the back in forall three films to make a nully cohesive story, and I think they'vealso leaned, on thes secondary media to kind of fill in the gaps. And so, ifyou've only watched the films, then yeah you' e t there. There are someholes in that story, but if you now to be ther, I've not read a lot ofthe secondary material like the novels or comics, or anything like that. Butthose do dive into a little more why Luke is verger jaded from what Iunderstand. So I think the biggest thing, though, is that yourinterpretation of Luk does not allow him to grow ar change. If I could justinterject a comment on on that, your...

...comment on secondary material, so I hadthat feeling between two and three I feel like Lucas didn't developdarthbader from in from Attacki the clones to revented the SCY. Well enough.He has that one moment where et kills all the sand. People thit's like theone moment you get of him getting. You know, dark sighty about it, but thenyou know I'm watching conewars and even in season two you're saying: okay, yeahhe's really strung with the dark side. That doesn't excuse this, because thatwas a after the fact, a D B, seven seasons of an ex an Antilior t v showwhich was good but not acceptable for characterization, really the onlypeople have kind of gotten away with that is marvel, but but even then thestories are sell contained enough, with the exception of you have to watch. Iin wor before end game. The stories yourself contained enough. You can kindof watch one and and enjoy it, but Hawpatin's reveal bing in fortnight.What was that about ATS, so strange Yeah Yeah? I have a wriing down somequestions. I'm GOINGTA ask you both Asu end. Let me just say that I think on Greg's point I I didn't actuallyhave too much of a problem with luke being sour. That wasn't, I mean Ithought his scenes were not well written, like I didn't like his themilk thing and h Wa like what is even happening, it felt like a lot of thetime being wasted, but I didn't actually have too much of a probme, itscarprogression, but again I feel like they didn't. They didn't actually setit up. Well enough. All right so actually point go ahead. See I'vemostly just written a lot about is not finding what we hate in saying, Woyiloved, just because I am personally just really intresp by that line. If Iever I'm going to get a Tattoo of Br Brian of Taris sword on my left arm,but if I ever, if I you know mustled through that one dis ide, I wantanother one it', not fighting. What we hate is saying what we love was goingon the other arm, but if we want to stay with with Luke onthat same point, Luke reveals his mistake about he about been so low,fully admitting yeah. I I screwed up here, but that was it. It was impulsive.It was an act of being being afraid of what the darkside could be being afraid of having another darththeater and how horrible that would be if there was another darth later so hereacted out of hate and out of fear and the was the line from Yoda. You knowhate leads to fear or anger, don't CA't rememr. What order of operation oTiitsyeah Yeah Hatelese is suffering so yeah luke created suffering. He fullyadmits he messed up and because of that mistake he believes that the Jedishould end because he doesn't believe himself to be capable of training upany good jetiray, on the other hand, chooses to see the lightside in Ben andshe pushes him to be better Yo. Even you can see them working together intheir duel, which is argual Migt, seen in the secel tilogy with the epratorianguards, and that argument they have afterwards he's like you, K W joine meto come with me and he's not willing to do so, but she still she still pushesat him and and believes that he can be better, which are arguably not a lot ofother folks. Have so counterpoint m yeah, I guess just to to to bounce backon we're going to stay on the topic of Luke Um. I think Luke's got plenty of plenty ofrooms to make mistakes, but again we're dealing in a movie that is that isn'this movie right is raise movie. I mean this is this is a whole bunch of otherpeople's movies that arguably and again this will be another topic. I'm surewe'll get into don't have much character, veiloment or mistakes madeat all, and so we had thi scare to hast gone through three movies of makingmistakes. I mean I love Luke when he's at his worst making mistakes in the inthe Ot, and it seems like he's griwing from these things and ultimately he'sreached his his climax. You know in in episode six Werk. He he has learned somuch that he is now wise and he's doing exactly what Ra's doing to his fatherand so his whole. His whole opinion on Darth Bater is now changed rightbecause he had this fear of Darth Bater and his changing of his view of beingafraid of him and saying you're not evil. I know that they're still good inyou and he saves him the fact that he's like, Oh, I didn't want anotherdartvater. He defeated Dorthater through his love and so that Ju tdoesn't make a lot of sense to me as a writer, if you're going to make that beyour hinging point on whya character, asspiraled into a complete countercharacter from what he was. I mean it's not just like a little bit and I meaneven to T. let's say he made that mistake. I mean what six months a yearlater, he he goes. You know wh t. This is something I need to work on. He'salready made this character. Development we've seen him for threemovies, and so now he's made this catastrophic one and to which there isno return, seemingly, if ray had never showed up and been essentially Jesus tohim and K, ow not made any mistakes and just said, hey Um, you know like theseare all the things here doing wrong and taught him it's like. We've gotten alot of Luke being taught lwent through all this development. Why is Ra btshouldn't ray, be getting getting developed as a character like I can'tlatch onto her, because I'm not familiar W H with people that don'tmake a whole lot of mistakes like that? I don't resignate with that as much andI don't think the audience at large resisnates with a character like a MarySux. It doesn't make a whole lot of mystics where's. You Got Luke who isgetting redeveloped in the same exact...

...ways: it's not even like they'rechoosing new topics for him to fail. Ut, maybe he's a master now and we haven'tseen him train people and he fails in a few at training people, but insteadit's like O yea, seven million years ago. I I trained somebody and I screwedup and then I gave up on everything and that just seems to be a really poor wayto write the Ho Mosthopal character ever into the worst least hopefulCheracterever. All right en I pause for a second. I have a question for youguys to ponder wi'e Gon to take we're going to take two minutes to justopenly discuss this so t the very beginning of the movie right, they're,attacking the base, they're evacuating and like three start stores pop in andthey're, about to open fire and what's his bucket, the the Guy En Beng thetrader in the yest hucks hucks he's a huxster, hucks Huck says hucks R hucks think H's Hue huck says: Don't firewait for the dread? Not? Why would he not and they never in that entire scene?They never open fire even when the bombers are coming in, even when thedreadknots can blown up? Why does that two minutes discuss? Why does that s?Whi Does hucks star destroyers, never SI fine with you, I'm confused as towhy e think about it that Whi bothered me.I never thought about that before, but I also kind of think we have a don't.We have a similar situation. Um with Peter cushing h forget his characters,name in Um in the first star wars, film, F, four IA, not firing up the EscapePot, Oh yeah, that that was a dumb thing too othere, also like whe rightbefore luke blows up the death star Lik it 's just like one next wing orwhatever is isn't it like kind of D Dismissi like in the very same way, andI mean because I think that entire attack pattern was was talked about atlarge portions in the movie. It's strategically. Why they're going to doit and there was a whole movie created as to how they even got the plans inorder to make this plan W are? Are you talking about the trench run like whythey're not firing out the xrins in the trunch? Yes, maybe conplating that with somethingfrom Rogwan, I don't remember it sothere is there effectively somebody in in the rebel alliance getsignored. The Empire makes a poor strategic move, but I kind of think ashuks as the new Peter Cushing, I'm so blanky on. I, his character's name,Grimma Parkin. Thank you. GRANDMA CARCAN never chooses to notfire on on someone, so tr yea Tarkin's only around for one movie he's reisewhere's, even a comparison made o where if Tarken was hucks in that situation,the rebel holiday would have just been anniilateeye. I I don't know so so inin a new hope. The reason that that the x ones can do the trench run is becausey they explain it. They say well that a fense perimeter is designed fromlargerships or smaller ships can sneek in under their giant laser battery, andthat's why they have to scramble fighters to take hem out so that theyactually did explain that yeah go now, but yeah H, I mean when t when theSkatepot ojecs is like. I hold your fier there's no one on it and I thinkthe Family Guy Parody Ma like shouldn't, sat. What are you uing by the lad and that's all I can think of for thehucks thing was okay? U Know You know what the apairs of yourelead surelyrter out the paper in triplcate he's not allowed to fire his lases. All right whose point is it? I thinkit's grags point firn M okay! Well, let's change topics here to ray who'sKindo like the central character in this movie. This like this, amongst allthe movies. I think all these sequels aim to do one thing to aim for visuals.I think Jabram says us a lot but Bryand Johnson to the same thing where it wasmainly about the vidual point and like what he wanted to accomplish at thesacrifice of story, and so you have somebody like Ray who, in the beg inthe first movie, we ha e. We have a force awakens. These are the questionsthat everybody's asking right Li, it's probably the most talked about thing-is like how, as r able to do all these things and again I was- I was amongstthat crowd. That was like okay. I like this character, though, like she's gotpotential she's Kindo cool, and they do some really cool things in the last.Yet I like there's a really subtle scene where she's on the planet, whereLuke is hiding out and she's, like touching the rain like she's, neverseen it and that's such a cool character development moment, becauseyou get the picture that she's grown up in his plane. Hit's never been anywhereelse, but unfortunately there's hardly anything else done. I mean she goes tothis plant where she's supposed to be trained in N in in turn, Kinda trainsherself. We don't really get that explained to us a whole lot. A lot ofit is just covered with the forest airquots and it just fills in a lot ofthe gaps, but we see her time and time again have the opportunity to makemistakes and end up not making them and really it hinges on her biggest mistakebeing wanting to find her identity, which is strange to think of as amistake like it's, not it's not a character defect, right, she's, tryingto find her identity in things, and she g Kindo gets told like what heridentity is in that weird room of mirrors, which is again also just theforce airquotes and ultimately she's like show me who my parents are andsomehow this force thing tells her points her to herself, which is aninteresting thing at ery least like hey.

Maybe you shouldn't be finding yordidany an your parents, it finding or ID Ano yourself, but it's never reallytouched on anymore and it gets completely blurred for the next fewmovies but ie in every single phase of it I mean I could go on forever, but Iju Tuch on one thing: she gets to the battle of of the Salt Planet. She getsin the millinium Vulkan, her first shot ever fired from a ship. I don't know ifyou e Hasve caught this. You don't know how a tifighter Sheod it's the triplesho. She killed three Ti fighters with her her first ever shot from it's likewhen you create a character like that, you're not worried that she's evergoing to get hurt, you're, not worried about anything. You can't connect toher because she's not making mistakes and and therefore it's a character, Tiskind of boring likecause, there's nothing to connect to not even justpersonally but you're, not doing a good enough job. Writing this character.COUNTERPOINT! Okso again, I think I'll all agree with some of what you've said,but I think the ultimate point of raise character is to show that the force isfor everyone and l actually legitimately says the force is ineverything and everyone you have like in the in the prequal trilogy you, youget the establishment of mid Midicorians, which are not mentionedpreviously in any other context. X. Force works. I hope that is directedtowards mcory. I Haso you've got. I love the scene at the end of the last,yet, where you've got the one guy of the little kid who just moves the roominto his hand and starts sweeping it's just one subtle little little thing andM, it shows that you don't have to be descended from sommystical Medicloriandynasty in order to be able to use the force and ultimately for Ray. I I wasthinking about the scene in the cave, where you've got the the snap and the mirror where you knowshe thinks her pairens are walking towards here. I he iltemately es reonher own reflection. I think t the last Jeda is a great example of Showdon't,tell N, because so much of the story is yes, it's not as explicit as a lot ofother stor. Worse films have been and in what it's trying to do, but I thinkyou get the idea of identity defined by your actions versus your genealogy andI think that's ultimately, where race character, Lance Exet for her daddy isLord Bommer aomer the ne I kind of Broish t they don't yeah. I they don'texplain that at all so writers, if you ever stop just say and suddenlypapatine returned and you get to do whatever the hell you want. If I cul just interject before beforeyou jump on your next point, I actually did think that that theme of the Forcesfor everyone kind of moving away from you know it's been this LineaejovAnnican and Luke. Primarily, although you know in the precous, we see allthese Jeda and they just th. Are they kidnapping children like okay, je war,the old genet ordered lutle sketch, but yeah rigt? You ever play Jea a e oldGAM, don't think so an and- and you know that's seen at the very end wherethe little kid's just like Oh yeah, look at me. I used the forse too. Ithought that was a good moment, but the thing is, I think that its, if that wasRyan, Johnson's main point, he made that point twice in the whole moviethat whole Mur Sem was just like. It was too c. It was too abstract. He needto be a little more obvious about it, but as it's abstract for a Star WarStol for starwar S, well, that that Mir scene Isbut, you know they'll hol thewhole, your parents are nobody and the little kid I I was okay with that. Ijust think Bryan Johnson should have leaned on that more and made that thecentral focus of the story, rather than all these little. You know almost likean anthology of disconnected bits and pieces that really I thought the mostthe most solid part of the story, even though I hav problems with it was Kailoand rayse mirroring of each other and growing closer, and I honestly thinkRyan didn't go far enough. I'm going to get my opinion on what I think shouldhave happened afterwards, but actually point okay, um. I think something thatwe've kind of danced around in our discussion is: What is the nature ofhow cannon is created in the Star Wars? Universe? I think one of what Iremember reading after the last jet I came out was there were a lot of folksthat were really upset with lea suddenly moving herself back into theship, ater she's forced out odlust it out into space and and obviously we canwatch the original tryllogy and see yes, Laa is for sensitive and there's You O.we've made the distinction before of there's difference between being foorsensitive and also be ing the Geto our knowledge. At that point, if we'relooking only at that movie, we don't know that La lay actually did geteyetraining. My thought is: This is the nature of the beast. Ultimately, StarWars has centered around films. You've got the secondary material that expandsthe universe ads. You basically like fills in the details, whereas the filmsgive you the broad spectrum. I thought it was completely within reason for leato be able to do that, and that's just one example, but I think some peopleget upset well Thi's, not how the forst...

...works no run one. I just wanted to get alls thoughtsabout what what do you think in the way that new canod is created? My personaltake on it is Um. They have the right to do whatever the hell they want. Itdoes have to make sense. I just think that particular point was was asticking point for a lot of lot of guys that lea could do that and they theydidn't like it. You say guys is in males to be perfectly frank, all the people Isaw objecting to it on the Internet where dews. Well, you shouldn't read tobjections on the Internet, t the being stupid. I know I have. I have anotherI'll share, a story after great ount appoint and then I have my two bits tothrow in Oso. I think you should want your film to make sense. Definitelybecause otherwise, your your audience can't connect to it or relate to it,and I think that's probably why you got objections from a whole lot of peopleon that scene. The fact that layus for sensitive is definitely something thats that's ente at mean. You have lliterally telling her he's like thatpower is, and you like straight up, and so it is to be assumed that that shemight have even done some training like a hundred percent and and my qualm wit,that wasn't that I wasn't excited to see Ley used the force at all I mean Iwould have loved to have a powerful scene where something is about tohappen, and she throws a book at somebody or knocks like uses the forceto pull something to her hand, r or close the door or something prettyextreme to somebody to this point, no audience member has any connection withthe fact that she can use the force, though instead you have her, I don'tenow what to call it. EAN She' she'scovered in ice, so clearly shedidn't create a forest forcefield. She she just used for survive in space,which is pretty I like. If Yoda did this, I think you'd have tons of guysand girls saying this is ridiculous, but you can't just create no limits,because then there's no point to watching. At that point, the then o ErYourself, you Ou, can say anything at this point is reasonable and you canmake anything happen right. I think there are really really cool elementsto adding things. IMWE Kilaren, stopping a bullet ant' is somethingwe've never seen, but this is interesting. Unifullay had pulled thisoff it ld have Ben. I e. This is kind of an interesting new thing that theforce can do it's kind of. In that realm. I can wrap my head around it asa fan. We can all watch and be like. We've got enough knowledge to thispoint where we can enjoy this and feel like. We know what we're looking atsurviving in the vacuum of space, in freezing temperature, pulling yourselfback the door opening and everybody not getting sucked out, and then you all ofa sudden just appearing just because clearly Ryan Johnson was like we wantedto get back in the ship. We d't really know how to explain it, but she's backin the ship he's just lazy writing and it distracts when you're actuallywatching. I mean everybody in my row of watching this movie, which Er guys andgirls were like like like like so confuse, and theproblem with bad movie. Writing is that when you watch the movies over and overagain, these things stick out more and more, and you find more things to belike you just didn't. You just expected me just just skim right over that, andthat's just that's lazy writing on their part, but also not not reallycaring about your viewer at all and just like kind of wanting to get yourlittle subversion and shock people in the moment when it really doesn't standtall so I'll just tow in two things. First,I had no problem with Layo being a Gete, because in n well, in the extended cannhat is no longer canon. Her kids are Jedi. I had no problem with Lagin. Ithink the way Tho reveal, that is to just have a paletto line, saper'caus alight sahber. We know if you have a LII, Aber you're a gene, so that tells usright away. Oh, she became a jete in between then, and now I think. That'syou know, using the force could be one thing, but t that seem was just soridiculous, just like, regardless of which character it was it didn't matterwho it was that a and the thing is it reversed. What could have been a reallytouching scene with with tioheling his mom and- and I was like, Oh and that's,how They'e Writing Carry Fisher up because she had died before this moviecame out, and so then she just floats back to space ation like. Why would youdo that? You had it? You had it out and like a nice ant touching end, and Ithink that could have been a moment for Tailo to like maybe fly by the body andsee her dying and have a change of heart or s. You know you could haveturne that into really powel for character moment, but instead he justkind o, oh she's, up and she's back and to me it just didn't, make sense forthem t to do that, yeah. So so I I thought that was a very silly momentthat I don't understand why. I it didn't make sense, inthe context of thewhole story why that happened made no sense ecause. She doesn't do anythingfor theing. I don't think the problem was the fact that she was the Jeti orForin Ha ver used the force or even did something really amazing. I think it'sthe fact that that just breaks yet how many established barriers in a universethat's been created and it breaks them in a way. That's kind of fundamentallytoss your hands UPYEAHO, but, but even within the context of the story, thatRyn was telling. That moment meant nothing. She comes back and then she'sin a coma for the rest of the movie, so she doesn't do anything so so otherthan keeping her life for the next movie. That's the only purpose of thatmoment anyways, I believe, Greg. It's your points. Okay, did you say thewhole o thing was going to be touchd on or UST for Itokay. Let's just talk,Ahaut the whold P thing. I know that's another like hot topic, if you ll wellBrietimet to Saye what I stated before...

...when you're writing a movie, regardlessof whether you like the direction, something is going and you likesomething you don't like it. You have to do a good job at getting from pointe to point B, so we have Admiral Holdo intor this movie, as somebody no e ofthe audience knows so as an audience member you're like Oh. This is aninteresting new character and she's depicted in every single way, as askind of like a p like like like a bad person right like so. She she starts ina really immature way, kind of like calling out Finn. She's, like I knowwho you are you e're just hemotod right and KINDOF like walks off and andthere's kind of all this pressure put on Fin who's. Sorry, Po, CCURSION andPO is repeatedly not not trying to take control he's just saying, and heliterally says this he's l e just tell me we have o just say we have a plan.You don't have to share it with me. If you think that I'm a mole which is apopular theory which fans are writing in for Ryn Johnson, which is silly thatit should be evident to a viewer in the audience, this doesn't make any sense,because he's just saying just tell me that there is a plan that there issomething and she repeatedly and the and the movie continues to make herseem more and more like an enemy, so you'R Purpoe, you are poposeinteracting as the audience sying hey I care about all these people. I I justkindof saved everybody second ago. I know it was reckless. I got the motivefor it, but I ill do that. Like I'll sacrifice my position to save peoplelike. Can you just tell me what's going on and repeatedly doesn't, and so hesays: Okay, this is my plan. He gives her the plan and she says well. Youvebet the odds of the resistance, but you've bet all their lives on bad odds.Then we find that a little later after she shoots thim and says I kind a likethat guy. So we know that she also likes him. After not sharing anythingwith him takes, the ship turns it around and we have to get n t guess. This isreally bad odds that she could hit all of one in a million one, a millionaccording to cannon. Now it was a one and a million chance, so she bet theresistance on bad odds that she could turn around and hit these guys at a oneand a million chance and get everybody out on spaceships. It makes no sense atall to leave the audience in the dark and have them really hate thischaracter, who turns around and does something because you have no emotionalconnection with that character. It could have been ATA macqbar and peoplewould have had more emotional connection, because you have tounderstand you're existing in a universe that has establishedcharacters and you've established a character that has now been hated thatyou don't like as an audience member, no matter what way you cut it t there'sno opportunity to t to like her think her deeds are good until the vary ind,and then she does something heroic and it's like. Even at that point you canrespect it, a n somehow curve it to where, like I was, a good idea, oveleft the audience no way to to enjoy that or interact with that or say manthat was really beautiful. That was really amazing, you're still kind oflike was I supposed to like that person. Sorry now, whatever two minutes isquick man yeah. I know that's the point, the bottles good El Soa couple ofthings about Holo. Yes, this is our introduction to her. There was also awhold old book. I have not so I know an Isny. This is Stut is what I find veryfrustrating, because I personally have not read the holeo b. One of my bodieshas- and she told me Holdo- is the Luna love good of the starwars universe, andthat description alone makes me love her tru. But lunolovgo is not a personyou want to command, perhaps not, but it doesn't mean thatshe's not smart, and I think you know we are having the th t the question of what does it meanto be a good soldier? She doesn't have to tell Po Damn thin sorry, she doesn'the's effectively a private at this point, he's beendemoted. He doesn't have to know everything he needs to get back in line,and he doesn't understand that, and that does it mean that she doesn't likehim or that he's not eventually going to be put back reinstated into hisposition. But Poe hasn't figured out how to be a good soldier. He'seffectively figured out how to you K, Ow do whatever the hell he wants and m.It doesn't necessarily add up to making the right call. I think your pointabout the dreadknot earlier it was interesting. I hadn't, thoughconsidered it that you know yeah, then t obviously taking outhe Dreg nnot wasa good thing, but he at the same time he was not following orders, and so youand I think Leo recognized that so the point of demoting him was like dude.You've got to learn how to follow orders. This is not going to work, butalso you know he has lon permission to get get an an xwing and blow upsomething and she's like granted. You N W, so obviously she she still likes himshe's, not angry at him for destroying the dreadknot she's. She is she's beinghis commands officer and he's not respecting that. If anybody has readthe Holdo Book has other background information about Holdo, please feelfree to interject, because I I too would like more clarification on hercharacter as well. I think that was a waste of Lor Darn, Lord Arn's amazing,so couple of things about hold te, maneuver H, first of all, while you'reRi t you're absolutely right and that she doesn't have to tell po her plan,she doesn't tell anyone her plan and I don't understand why and there's noreason not to tell people we are going to deposit the ships and then I'm goingto turn around and I'm going to do something crazy or at least hand or LeSay I have a plan. Just trust me, I'm in command. You need to trust me. I Ithink this is you know if she tells...

...anyone her plan they're like no, youcan O, but but again she shshe Jus SA soowitness. You need to trust me, and Iunderstand okay, but well er, so I'll give her the benefit. F, the doubt. Ifshe told Po poets say I have to do 'cause, I'm EST pilot right, so fineshe doesn't help o. She should have told someone, or at least said I have aplan. This is uonly shot. You need to trust me and just do what I say, butokay, I'm in command, I'm calling the shots. Do what I say, because you needto put your faith thin ye, but she just kind of dismisses pull out of handwhich I think was too strong. The second Po heard the plan he said Th.This might actually work a and so it's a really I mean well, it's a horriblecall on her side, no matter what whay you cut it, because she at least hadenough people that she was commanding that thought she was crazy where theycreated a mutene. I mean that's, not very good, leading to be like I'm notgoing to tell anybody just follow orders, because I told you to like thatshouldn't be the message it shouldn't be. Like look, this is what you shouldultimatete yeah, but yeah yeah after messages. Finally, fallow orders, evenin the military, that's not an Grat onl, the AAM. It's in the light of anexample where Po didn't finally follow orders and he saved everyone yeah, butth. The second thing is so: Why did Hodo herself have to be theone doing the maneuver? You would think toshes Li on like. If I are in Heces, Iwould have m get Behin, okay, here's the biggest problem. I have with thatmaneuvel Hatthis, where the hell ded autopilot go wher the deroids, whereyeah, where are yourroids. Why there's a- and this is Narsis- is not a problemwith Holdin herself. This is the problem with t the higher concept ofthe whole o maneuver is, do you not have you know they have targetcomputers and autopilots androids that CANF hell in the prequels. You have joychips, so joids can do these sorts of things and, if you think about like afight, cun be like an actual computer that I have on a real airplane. You canprogram it to do. L K E'r talking about Morea Technology, so you should be ableto program a computer to do a certain hyperspace jump right and really coolshot, and it really feels like that was set up because it really feels like thevisual was, was Ninelie, and then they put the plot in place to get to executethat and I feel like they could still have that visual and just have likemaybe hold o hits the Bunton and e Gei on our subversonces on a pod, too teatt more about this character instead of introducing yeur and killing yeah. Sothat frustrated me because they're, like your just new character and she's,interacting with the main cast and then h, o sorry she's dead. Five. I thinkthere there's also there. There is a very big discussion within star wars,scholarship at large. How, like I mean startre, has the same discussion arounddata like R droids sentient. Do they think do they feel that sort of thingand Tafor starwrs have said there are multiple lines across multiple starwarss that droids do not are not sentient but Tso. Lo then you ha, youhave the BOT from Solo th, but he wouldt even argue R, two BBA andCTHREPIO or all but they're not considered they're, not considerein, anand well that's the right. Scotworker thing is see eas bing, all emotionalliterally none of the cast responds emotionaly to him because they alltreat him as though he is just Ra Ma Commuter Thouh they've also been IkeandTheyre Ol, an total of like one and a Hal yeah. That was he that it wasn'this audual friends, my friend Andie. Sorry, who are you I've seen you onceKno with La, so I just wane. That was the point that I meant to makepreviously about candidate caniniity versus contnuity yeah. They can declarewhatever. Can they want 'cause they're in charge? Howse some mouse declares itcannon. So if it's Canon it's Canon right, but that doesn't mean that its G,it's good for continuity and I think th the whole de Manoeuvers can in butWella the whold. That was bad example, but you know some of the stuff iscannon like like raping a Palpatinis Canon, but was that good for thecatnuity? I don't think so, I think, was snok being a clone of everythingbeing controlled, Aby Pal patene good for the COTNUITY. I don't think so.That's the subject. We all agree Ye. We O a I the rise of Skywara Likna Sel aso I think it is Ashe's Pointbegin, okay, Um, so some of the stuff that wekeep kind of dancing around as well- and I think this is this- is going tobe a question to to think about within thecontext of the entirety of the Star Wars, films, how Science Fictioni likehow hard is the science supposed to be within star wars, because MaycloriansFil answer no, but I I thinki t this is something that never would haveoccurred to me because I'm not a science person. I have a master'sdegree in science fiction, not in ACTO ow. It doesn't work N, but Um. When I was an Undergrad. What Omight lip professors? We were talking about whether or not star war it? Hisscience fection of fantasy lit class- and he was talking about whether or notstar wars was a science fiction, felm or a fantasy gi. I had. I was likeobviously it's a sciencefection film that happens in space and but he's like,but we in the very first moment of Star...

Wars, we get a ship and is making Ppoosals and you can hear it and you can't hear anything its pace, there's no air. So some of the the points we weretalking about earlier about you k O whether or not yeah they opened theairlock, and obviously people don't go rushing out into space when they dothat, except they did initially thats. As Sa yes is, is you can have the softsouce Ar Achonar cast? But but basically, I guess a kind of a questionis how seriously do we really need to take the science in Star Wars versus we?Take the siece pretty seriously in stark trek at St Star. Wars, I think is,is a different animal, because, ultimately it is it's a space opera,it's a fantasy. Yes, there are sciencee things, but I mean within the firstthree seconds of the film of the original of the original Star Wars.VILM. We completely toss all signs out the door when we have qq sounds inspace fur enough and also gravity on the box myeah. No, I think that's definitelysomething. That's always it's kind of a point of argument. I think the mainanswer is it's. It needs to stay established like within t a Universiexistence. So, for example, we know that in star wars things blow up ATS,probably not well, it's definitely not the way. Thay happened in space.There's, not big explosions like het and fire can't exist without oxygenright now, all of the sudden, an episode eight they're like Hey, wecould shoot this one bomber it'll blow up and blow up all the other brombersand they said we no because there's no explosions in space. This wouldobviously be a problem because you'd go wait. All of the other Star Wars. AnoIs Heavi House and Waod, and so I I would say that the mainquans people have with with science problems and things like that mainlycome from well. This has either been established, or at least you're goingto have to now explain why all of these questions- and I think a lot of yeah e.The bomb thing at the beginning is kind of comical, because she's, like sittingin there theres, doesn't look like there's any force fieeld underneath her.If, if there is, they didn't explain that the bombs drop question mark, butthat's not a big deal, because I mean you could just say: There's some kindof gravitation Il Pol me theyr magnetized and they got pulled down.But there are science. Questions like like: We've never had movement in spacebe a big question, but now all of a sudden they're like once we run out ouof gas. We just stop an IDL and it's kind of like all right, like you'reKINDOF, throwing another wrench N and h n. Now we have bullet drop that we'reseeing from the Lazers drop in space, which is another thing we haven'treally seen and again. I think it's they're sacrificing story for visuals,because it looks very cool to see these long distanc chest. Lasers drop justbehind all these running away ships, but in reality we know that that's nota big thing. N In the whole, I think one of the biggest problems in why Tljhas such a problem with I thim and get so much backlashes, because almost thewhole entire story was based off of these scienific premises that they're,lighter and faster than we are, and therefore we cannot catch them andyou're like man, that's a pretty weak outline like couldn't you have amillion things you could do to fix at cau you had people lights beat in frontof them. Couldn't you call ships in from the other side? Couldn't you justshoot a Lazer and it continue forever once they run out of gas? Why do theystop? There's a huge plot hole, wh t th Wen talking about gas when they sindfin to the planet which I'll get into later, maybe yeah. So I think it'sdefinitely soft SCII An. I would argue it's so soft. You could spet on yourBegel B, but the thing is the thing: Is it doesn't matter howsoft the science is as long as you're? Internally, consistent and Star Warshas not been. You know completely self consistent, a and some of it led to in the prequils.I think I think each tr, I think the original challgy and the prequal trillyou work self consistent within themselves, so the prequal trildre wasconsistent with the stuff that the PEOPL trill you set up, which I thinkLucas went a little too far, trying to explain everything in his in his goalto expand his universe. I think e. He h he overexplained things that didn'tnecessarily need o explain like medical orients, right, er, andhe idea thatAnikin is Jesus. 'cause E, I hea Bite spawnd by Niy, Corin Yourold, the firstI was like birchant birth. What Jesus Wie, Iyeah, thinkltiaty, Miticorians and people getmarried, but I I think ultimately, the starasuniverse has not been consistent in its treatment of science. That creates different problems withinthe story. Sure sure, but I think, for the most part star wors is just kind oflike stuff works. It breaks, we fix it, it just it Kinda. You know all theansilarated stuff goes like way: inlike well, USAS A T, one thousand fusiongenerator to use antimanor particles to wo ywo too anytime. You say two onethousand, I automatically a terminator and it's it's ornol child part, but but within the movies, there's stuff ThoHavis you're not like wait a minute, that's the how any that works until thelast yet ibe like that's, not how that should work. So I think uniquely thelast yet I had some some self...

...consistency issues that that are pro. Iagree with you. Those were like the only problems. I I wouldn't yeah athose. I didn't even notice the boas dropping Oll over the place and, like Isaid, I think it's accented a little more because the kindo like the entirechasings placed around it, so you kindof have to be like. Why are wedoing this again and you're like all right? But again, those are the onlyproblems. You know, I think I'd be there with you and be like Yeah Star,worse, okay, we're at an hour. So how many ore points you got Um? I think Ionly have one other thing. I think that we should touch on mone,more pointeg, yeah. So one's your point, I guess I'll. Just I'll touch on acouple of myn play: PAVORITE plot holes, they're quite a billion a lot of hembut Weldu on a couple, so fin is shocked to find out as the audience isand he's acting as the audience here to be to realize that you can be tracedthrough hyperspace ince. They have a hyperspace tracker. He is shocked bythis. He says he has a line where he's like you can track through hyper spacemoments later he informs emall that he mopped the room with the hyperspacetracker and therefore he knows whatto find and locate. This is kind of a bigproblemethis is one that I actually caught. While I was watching the movie-and I was like this- just pulls me so quickly out of the movie- It'sobviously a problem like if you were like a Ryan Johnson like he didn't haveany writers like this is a big problem, and so it's KINDOF silly to see comethrough on a huge motion picture. It's upsetting. I think a lot of the fanswere upset by that just because there's contiar another big one, which takes alittle longer to explain, is so they're running from these people, and thewhole point is that hey, we can't jump the light speet. This is the Lina use.We can't jump Te light speed because then will be out of gas and they cantrack US and besitting ducks. Those are ticounty exact line, and so the plannow is to go down to this planet find this thing come back put them a Guffin,an the whatever stop. The trackand then go to hyperspace at the end of themovie. They keep getting updates on the gas and, at the end, they're like we'rerunning on fumes. How are you supposed to jump into hyper space at the end,how is Holdo able to turn around and accelerate into hyperspace? If you need,if you needed fuel to activate hyperspace in which you would be asitting duck, then how are you able to Jug along the whole movie, be runningon fumes by the end of the movie turn around and then use sad hyperspace thatyou've informed the audience takes up the rest of your gas? No gas is a ththing that they chose to establish. I mean I'm fine with never even hureringthe word fuel and all F star, but if you want to establish it to me and saythis is a big problem, it's what the whole movie hinges on and then Kindofbreak the laws of your own creation. It was, it was distracting for me and Ithink, a lot of fans where you're like okay again, what's the main ppoint ofthis movie, what's the conflict, why is it there? The conflic wis only there toshow these visuals and it's as if there were just not a whole lot of care givenand therefore it was s a movie t. There wasn't a lot of attention given to themovie in that Area: Nd Don, thinkit trackd to all a lot of peoplecounterpoint. Those are things I never considered, and I think part of that isbecause of the point I actually wanted to make. Isthat I think the last yet I tells an emotional star war story and for me,whenever I watch any film or read a book or a comic or T v show or whateverwhat I focus on is what is this story? What what emotions and what thoughts oris this is thi store, trying to evoke for me and for me again, I because I amso enamored with the it's not fighting what we hated saving, what we wote andhow even though yeah you've got the what holes that you've mentioned.Ultimately, you have DICO the economies between characters. Some of them areshowing. This is what happens when you act based on fear or anger or hate, andthis s. This is what happens when you act on love, whether or not you likethe Indiagram, that's fine, but I'm an eight and don't know Wa. Okay, so oneof the characteristics of anate is that an eight is very protective off theirpeople. So yall are my brothers. It people mess with you, I'm going to gopunch them. CEPA GRAN was messing with me. Oh well, it's going to be a problem, but but I I also know in my worstmoments I am inclined to act in anger in that I I it it makes me angry whensomebody messes with somebody I love or or somebody I love gets hurt and myknee jerk reaction is I'm going to go punch you offending party, but ultimately I lovethat line because of what it reminds me to do is that I don't need to act. IndAnger! I need to do I nee. I need to act in love, and that means caring forthe people in my circle and I think, ultimately, that's what the lact ded Iue so ashe's response. Whenever someone steps out a line, I think her foit was that Yeu shouldn'tdo that. IGYEAGONTA! Try Not to do that. Um that was kind of creating a newpoint. Do I rebet that you want to give her? No do you wan T, do you WANTNA? Imean you C N, take tw two more minutes to expound on that point. Yeah! It'syour point yeah! So I mean effectively what I I was saying. I did not noticethose plahols that you mentioned th the...

...science stuff s star wars as fuzzy onscience. I don't care, I think. Ultimately, it doesn't matter that much,but the I think you could really in a lot of ways sum up a lot of star warswithin with that line too, especially the yodaline from lytats empire, Orthas,episoe, three yeah cearlyangering, re Ha e Suerso, at least the suffering,but h then again, wlshes Brakinto, her time s ultimately, you'vegot you've, got that line that that kind of that line of thinkingthroughout the whole thread, whether you start with t riginal ter at your O,Freqal Trilorgy, that that same idea is is still puut to the forefront and Ithink the last yet I sums that idea, uvery very well and in its not fightingwhat we hatee a O aepoint yeah. Honestly, like I love, I love a I've,got a nephew he's been se te star wars, it's the greatest thing ever watching twith him and he doesn't love the last yelike on he he likes all but like,like. I think episode like seven is like his favorite or o sorry, I'm ethird favorit. He asme or anythings all the time Reno like like just because I don'tthink they're great movies. You know I think in thes subjective the fact thatI don't like them and somebody else does. It still makes me Happy Ike Actthat you can get those themes out of it. You know it makes me it makes me happylike I'm so glad that you like that onhy on the objective side of how itstories told within the movie. I obvious. I have objections specificallywith this one, because unfortunately I think they do a poor job of meetingthat because you have the character rose, which is, I guess, supposed to bethe enbodiment of this right, because she brings it to the fourthfront ofsaying hey this isn t not how we do things and again I pointed out thebeginning at ways that she kindo didn't really demonstrate that. But she alsohad this really personal one where she goes back to the planet where she wasinslave Dhat and she destroys everything. I I think there is a difference betweendismantling M slavery. Verses. Did she dismantl slaver in Anyon? I mean s. Hecertainly messed us up for a little, but I think she'd probably hurt a lotof people, maybe kill some people. I think she released a lot of animals andthen there I a bunch of slaves, still inslave whan. We got to see that stillthe end of the movie and it was confusing just because that was hermain purpose. She even said- or it was spin that was like that was good. Itwas good to make him hurt and I was like how is this tematically accurateto what these characters are going through in any way and she's like itwas worth it so literally getting captured the mission, saving people,you love. It was worth it just to go out and hurt these people and like then,so it confuses me for me myself, lashing on the themes like that to,whereas like hearing somebody that watchd that movie and got such goodthings as Li, I'm happy- and I think that that's great, but I thinkobjectively, as a movie. It's not whether, like I like it R, I dislike itand you like it an it's like. Was it good? I don't think it was very goodjust because I don't think ou at home for enough people in that area, forkind of confusing reasons like that, where you're like what are th, what arethey doing over there? Just no, I think Cantobi, I I sorry we didn't real et, IY, I hope, can't Ol B. I think it's interesting because m without cantobite,you don't have been truly joining the resistance, because Finn Sees Yeah. This isactually what we're fighting against, but I think also again this you getthis deconstruction of Star Wars. WHERE DJ I pausino be construction. B'causeICTUALLY wanted you to start from the beginning. H, explain how the last yetI used to be constructive. Star Wars just take etake five minutes andexplain 'cause. I I'm not seeing it LISN O open to sc its like open it. Ijust lent you 'causeAthe Babis over, will take closing statements just gothrough Howis. How is the last et ade construction, Star Wars, 'cause? Yousaid that Um, okay, so just from a purely structural standpoint, it'sempire in reverse: they start out. They are on the run and at the end of empire,the're on the. U You've got big battle in the Middle M. You've got ray, tryingto figure out her identity mirrors with you know: Luke, finding outBarthaters's father, you've. Also G T en I think Y A big one. This I I'mtotally blanin on the name of the Salt Planet in Nothaf, ah but B, t butbasically visually you C conter up images of Cogh, eoh, yeah, absolutelyabsoluty, and so so you've got salt planet versus Ice Planet. So just froma purely structural standpoint, that was one thing I mean because when Iwatche it last I for the first time it's L K. it's been a while since I'veseen empire, but I think it's empire reverse and- and I I think you couldyou could make that argument pretty well. So, just from a purely structuralstandpoint, its empire inreverse you've got you hit a lot of those same pointsas well, especially with ray wanting to know where she comes from Luke Findingout where he comes from that sort of thing, so I think just structuraly hisentire reverse deconstruction had the line. This is not going to go the wayyou think 'cause I mean what is what is this entire discussion has been you. You guys are Guing Oll.This isn't how a star wors till works...

...and I'm arguing it doesn't have to bethat way. I onnow that's exactly yeah, I I don't. I don't think that's myargument at all. I don't think my argument is like this. Isn't this youshouldn't do such a thing in a starwars film I would say, but don't you sorry,I've heard you repeatedly say. Ryan Johnson doesn't know anything aboutStar Wars, yes, and I would like like did he? Has He explicitly said hedoesn't exposyes? He explicitly says I no et on my bi did not know hat yeah.So so so I say that not because I looking at this movie saying he knowsnothing about Sarwa, but when you think about it, so here's my h. let me giveyou my hot, take my big hot, take um on Thi C becats. Clearly everything I'vesaid so I I think Ryan was trying to do a subversion and he very clearly stayd.I wanted to suvert people's expectations. I don't think there'sanything wrong with that. But the thing is when I look at how he executed them,the executions just none of them hit from me, none of the hip from me. Ithink some places I think for a l, a lot of them. He didn't go far enoughand I think he couldn't go as far as you needed to to make a really actuallygood, subversive stars movie because he had such a surface level, knowledge ofStar Wars the whole. You know lasere swords and Space Wizards. That's what ala person thinks about star wars. That's like! Oh, what is Bamiis a guyhe's, a guy who fights crime in his pajamas, some rich guy, xr aamas right.So a person who only knows that much about tat men, I would not trust toriht a subverse Batman story so to me last yet I let me give you a hot somehottaks about what I think should have happened in last ye I there Ogo. Ithink I think you keep a lot of the stuff righ. I think the theme of thethemes that you've been touching on, I think t iwas all great. I think th,okay, so luke saying this is not going to go the way you think it is, but it'sjust it's just again. If it's just anparniverse, that's not actually that'subversive to take an existing movieg tost slip. It right, you should insomething completely new. Really. What should have happened is again throwingaway all the stuff that all the waste Ed character potential of Po, notreally accomplishing anything, fit, not really accomplishing anything. You knowvery. They had hey each had like one minor character moment, o Gro, wherethey could have had a lot more ignoring them. For now, I think Rayand Cailoactually showed a lot which ofcourse was completely raised by RiseoSkywalker, which was frustrating, but here's what would have made it trulysubversive. Kailo comes back to the light side and regulars on the darkside that would have been subbersive, and I think the turning point for that.I know that ad been suversent because everybody was saying that, but he didn't do it right and so so rayand but the thing is Ra and Caila. Both come really really close to the CENTR,or maybe they both just say polaluke and say we're bandoting. All of thiswe're throwing it all away, and we re we're going on our journey, but butthey never the Taioan rate comes so close and then they just snap back atthe end and so all their their whole ark ends up, resulting in not a wholelot because Kindo, like it's really close to lightside, really close tolieside, and they just like. I were going to blow up the whole dace andracomes really close to Darksa D. I really close the Duckn n she's, likeI'm the last jed eye. Woooo, so I think ride builds up a lot of stuff, but thenjust never pays anything off in any meaningful way. So I you talk about adeconstruction or subversion, but none of the stuff he did was satisfactory interms of Caracterno, of course, ride a skuywalker again raced all that, but Ithink I mean you haven't talked a whole lot about this ubversion thing, whichyou know. I don't know if Yur ententinally doing that or not, but I'mglad because Hou saidburting our expectations of Aty Masseer, I thinksubversion in itself, as as a form of like writing and just telling a storyperiod, it makes no se like, like, I think, the guy who roegame the thronesa blanking on his name, og Ae yotaling about the George Armar. Yes, so he hasther bi this interview, where somebody asked him a question d about subversion,not something being kind of like like H, you kind of expect it to happen andhe's like well. I could also have like aliens come down in the middle of M mystory, and that would subbert all of you, but that wouldn't make any senseand it would be it would be like disingenumen to you as a reader likeyou would have had no way to know that there's no hints to be like, Oh n N,like e there's, like small lit like have you ever seen the book of Yuli, I,like Tho, O T it's no like that, so the UndingTinon, the spoilet, now thereas a big Charactermo n at the veryvery end that completely casts a new light on the entire fill, and it'sreally good o. But my whole point in that movie is that thereare there aresubtle things: Tt the whole movie intentionally done by the director toallow the audience a little bit of time to go. Maybe maybe it's this. Maybeit's! This babe says maybe it's this and maybe of a few of them thate caughton, but either way by the end. You can look back and go an lead. Somebody Elsense wers subversion for the point O s aversion. Does it make a whole lot ofsense when you choose to not explain things and in some cases just sayingit's star, wors anything can happen. ASTHAT's actually nothow like star wars,unoperated within its own star wars, rules and to throw everything out,doesn't give the audience a chance to enjoy anything yeah, and I think D, Ithink it's unfair to say tha people who didn't like it just didn't like thefact that thei expectations were subverted, I'm fine with it again right.I think that I tin Mea a lot of the stuff he did could have worked if ithad been executed better anything I can,...

...if you, I think I mean think think someof the complaints we've had were like well, that was just either lazy,writing or or or bad storytelling, but I think a lot of the big charactermoments Alouh, the stuff that you loved, I think, there's there's stuff, there'sgood stuff in last Jed I, but it just wasn't done by someone who really lovejust we talke about Lord the Rings being a Labor of Love, and I don'tthink this s is true for j j either. I think this is you coan see the wholeDisney thing prequels as Flod as they are clearly George Lucas loved what hewas doing. You just don't feel that, with with with a Secuel t, even thetheme like so the theme you talk about, which is not not destroying what youhate, but but it's not funny what you hate it sayingmuch Ao, wouldn't you say that's most embodied in episode. Six, when Lukethrows his lights saver down with a chance to kill the most evil menacingcharacter ever and it's just love that alterat saves him and in which case youlook at the last Yeta say. What is the moment that embodies that 'cause? Wouldyou call it rose nothing fin out of the air, because I think I think you haveindividual moments throughout the film versus one big moment. Likein the rereturn weere some of those individual moments you may have touched on Hem,I'm sorry for making. You Repeat Eso. Oh you now, you wan know something wehaven't talked about: Snoke et's, let her talk to thethethere are things that I think there are so many things that I thinkso I think, let's see, I think if you want to talk a big moment in which wesee in action fighting what we hate versus saving, what we love, Kailowren,blinded by anger and just utter fury at Luke, even showing up on the saltplanet, is like fire. Every gun on that man, which is I it is the verydefinition of overkill Um. You know you're you're, blestd you're, takingall of your the things that are not atats. The gerilla walkers can cal yeah,whatever o you've got all of these weapons, firing on one man and andevenoxes like dot. You think that's a bit excessive, elike, yes and then, ofcourse, Youe Got Colaran. SIPER GRUBB is like yeah, just do it whatever, andso that is the very definition of of hate fighting with within intent ofhatred versus Luke who, ultimately, his diversion, gives the resistance time toescape. You ow he's he's a forced projection, brushes the shoulder offhis act and even even in every single fight. When, when CAILO comes down tofight him, one to one all of his moves are. Are Defensive moves he's dodginghe's, moving out of the way he's not even like raising the lightsateroom tto hit him. That's saving what we love, I mean, and it's that same principlethat you get at the end of the return of the GIT. I work each to eat turnsoff his light saveries as I'm not going to fight you fatherbtbut. Also, at theend of episode, six, he didn't like dance around around Darth, Bater andthen kind of wink at him and say well, see you later man and then brush hisshoulder off and kind of insult him. He was super humble and changed himthrough his love, whereas him reapproaching Ben, who was somebodythat he admittedly Trie Ol job Ye. He get it out of there andheis completely arrogant. He's he's doing this like for the purpose of I, Ithink, for the purpose of making the crowd laugh, because he has a couple ofmoments where he comically swipes his sleeve off and then dodges him a bunchand then kind of like snickers at 'em and you're kind of like you're kind of a jerk like like what islike Ye. I know what he was doing. It had a story. A that's. A layer of thisis also a diversion for the resistance yest ohl that made sense, but myopinion is like was like. It didn't seem like like love right like He. Healready gave an example of this where he did show love and a really real wayto me. Love would have been I'm Goin to go out there, as my actual body form,distract him and then die. I think logistically, there's no way for him toget there. At that point, I ex ING true well y. We don't need to worry about.He have goten there yea. I was just saying thematically to follow thattheme. It just seems like that. Didn't even hi hit as hard as themes that havealready been hit on in Star Wars in the past that have that exact same elementwhereas, like I mean I didn't necessarily connect it to that moment.What you're saying I don't know if a lot of people did I'm obviously happythat you did objectively thou as a movie di good, do a good job explainingthat I'm not too sure like he kindof seemd, like snickery and n Yeah dusythe whole time, but he did allow them to escape. So ultimately, I mean you'reright was he ultimately saved what he loved? Although the person that saidwere going to save what we love had no idea that they were going to be saved,presumably they would have all been destroyed behind her and then shekissed then, which makes no sense, considering that they did a wholeentire movie kind of building tension between him and Ray and him and Po and mated Kailowren for killing Hansolo,now kind of feeling Kyoran again yeah Ralo was that's Wi. I young people thatship it and you know different strokes for different folks. I I...

...don't see honestly- and I think part ofit I idn't does they even say like the the kiss at the end of rise, Skywalkerwas friendship. Kids, US UNMOTUAL, inspectors O who is who isphysically affectionate, eye hug and kiss everybody, but not like that. Ownot Miami would kiss on the cheekwhen we say hello, a go bye, O people a was not also, I just I. I think it would havebeen hilarious right. He he brings her back to life and then thighs. Then shebrings it and it just gomes back and forth as a hnshe, kisses, im Pactis S. I havethat roon in my notes, while watching the first time I go, I go dadadatwaiting for her to bring him back to life for him to bring her back to like.Oh, he disappeared, never mind and that doesn't come back to the FORSTGUSTwhich boggled my mind anyway. L in the sun we did't even get into Forceo O boythtsomething T. is you really only get details about how that works within theCLOWOR's animated series, like you get you get like touches of it and hints atit, but Yoda mentions at the very end of episode three that quigone found away to come back as HA force goes. Thawhich is like you're over explainingman Bako that but snoke so snoke. I didn't need a lot of backstory from snoke. Well that here's her the Line Hou'r the line that made meangry that he killed him off so quickly when he has the flashback and Lukeexplains why he tried to attack, try to retect Ben. He says I knew snoke hadgotten to him like okay. Now you have to explain snow 'cause. They clearlyhave been fighting snoke for a long time. He just popp. As far as we know,forswagens is the first time the resistance has ever encounterd him, buthow you're telling me they've been dealing with this guy for a long timeyou got to give me Asim or sometalk aboutwithin the realm oaignorings,ignoring rice hard to do that, an ignoring rises of skywalker explainingthat away, which obviously was not rewe're thinking about las. This ishard to do now that rises, Starar Ot, im oingbut within the last get I rionhad no plan for Telpein t com down. She looked me an publis. The wholediscussion of there was clearly not enough work done on the Akan behindthis Jurg. I we coul all R, an and heres. What frustrates me so much aboutGlascheta is nives out was brilliant was a subversion? No th iyanjohnson isa damn e director. So why did last Geni not work? I I think there are a coupleof reasons. I don't think it's. I don't think I'm not going to say RhynjohnSinnecapo was completely the problem Ey. Why would you hire one director directMiddle Sequel of a movie of acrilge and not the other two B? They clearly hadno plan of what was happening. They just said you're directing it your yourin control, and there was no obviously j, J and Bryan had no talk between them.An black you hears what we're planning for the children again. This is goingto get a seno talking about other movies. I got to keep it as conceand,and three Disney really should have hired people who were passionate aboutStar Wars. Well again, I don't mind even somebody coming in and writingsomething, that's very different fron, the other sors, but they should atleast know. I think my dolor is very different from other starors, anmindonis Brill S, th everyexactly, because Bcaus saishhim when wentake- and I think Mandalora is a great example of being in theuniverse, but doing your own thing, like it's all, starwar stuff, that yourecognize, and so I'm a little nervous about season too, because o sai wellSocotano is coming in and Cain rexis coming in and all these other thingsfrom other series. I don't don't poison the Manto Lor in the Mendoorian, let itbe its own thing. That's just set in the Star Wars: Universe, try not to gettoo off topic. Let's just try to talk about. Ok, Withn, tlj, no withintl j.He ID nothing. It's a bit confusing for a lot of reason, because don't e Yeah eand think again it's hard to talk about Hem in light of like the fact thatHewas popeting all the time but anyways, not knowing that at that point, knowingthat he is the menacing evil. You've only got a limited number ofantagonists in a world that hasn't been built very well. I mean I didn't evenget into a lot of th. Where are we at in the universe like? Who is thesuperpower you destroyed a few planets? Is The republic completely dead if theRepublic stead? What are the other planets doing if, right after you madethis crazy gesture to below up innocent planets, your big gun was destroyed.You tellg me all the other star systems aren't like what's going on, Tlj juststarts off and it's like the resistance rule r like or the first order do likerules, I think, is the first like line of it and you're like how like worldbuilding you got to do a little better job because now ihave no idea like inagain. I I think this is a a situation where Disney is leaning, trying to pushpeople towards a secondary material, and that's it's clearly nowory. Ah Well,but it's not fair to the reviewer whois O's, just tuning in and going how to.We like you're, clearly just kind of one head, an SLUMPI Moranong likeLikengai, not to change the movies too much but like like episode, seven wascomically episode. Four, regardless of hether episode, a was reverse episode,five or not, it was. It mirrored episode five in a lot of ways and th,and then dedined was episodinixat work and instead of doing the work toWrigten your evotsust and Indo in doing yourwn, interms quality and in doing inorder to do that, you have to do the work of writing yourself to get intothe back inthothose positions, because...

...that's not how you left ater episode.Six, the whole universe was different and instead thet were just like thingsare back to the way they were because and you're like well. Why Ike? Justbecause and now so now, we're still in T L, J nothing's been solved, you'relike. Why are they still the superpower, the deskstars been destroyed, and thenyou have snok who's the ruler, but he's not like like regardless of hether you,the precuools or not. They did flesh out one of the most interestingcharacters and starwars, which is inper Palpatene, and you really get a deepdime into how he came into power 'cause. It's such an extreme thing and insteadnow we have snoke, who is in power questioner, I guess, and then, and alsoa sifth Lord question en he's the one that's doing. The FOURC SCIPE callsbetween the two of them yeah that didn't make any sans Mi he he admits tothat at the end. So then raise like and then an then a question it it's Noeven,a reliable narrator, there's like quetion about Cailo wrettoo yeah was snoke. Trying Wel Snok do snoke want Cailo, or did he want Ray,which was it he it's totally unclear. So He hest? U S like Odamr got to Goinon. I want her SEAKAILO neras white boy. Get Out of here. Smoke is very Sassy in my mind, causehey, that's the only characterization I got 'cause. He didn't get anyt. Also. Ijust had to Pifhany guys. I just realized what happened. The sequeltrilogy is Disney's, live action, remakes up the original trilogy, it alllights up Wat. If this was e, wewis tthall, it's Justthis is this hugeallegory of the origiil, but something that I find to behilarious is that that Cailo Ren is iolizing, rthvadert, H, rigt. I neverunderstood that who wo repented the e the Empor came back as a force ghose ofhimself. Where was his forscost popping up and be like, do do thats, no right,awise his force? Well Hayit's! Because onestwhen you started grandfather Twat,you mete TN, O e evices, all daybut. He says ill finish what you start, yourgrandfather, what you mean t justmantlen me Umpire Ik, so continuingto kill people like like and then finish what you t hen remind tthe reason is keep if he, if the emelyStruk Vader, he gets a colhelmet. If he emulates Emporo palpaty he's gotto putold person make up on it was yeah. I mean Sok a Eorselitwasaightning, some wrankles into his face. Yeah bt Byeah. Don't think we can go anyfurther out getting all that it', it's yeah! So we, let's, let's rat this? U,and we will continue, maybe not next week but on a layer day, we'll jump it.The Rizal skywalker and and look we'Llook at risals Guy Algerly andwe'll all agree that theyeetiating an in regardless of the merits of theindividual films, that the trilogy as a whole is just a mess. A hot mess or ahot mess. Rayu've got nothing to lose, but I've already lost my temper. Sorry,don't row me OE Rome, I' Goanto play US hout with that othat's good 'cause. Idon't know what that is. Cromias like a Tehno P tecnopop in that's probaby,really good. I figured so. Let's do real, quick, closingstatements and we'll start since we start with Ashley, we'll start withGreg osing state pluzzing statement on the last et um yeah on a subjective,personal level. I obviously don't like the last jet I on a subjective level. II like that people can like it and find really really interesting and cool andfun things that the movie was clearly trying to do on an objective level. Ican't geet o behind the fact that it's a good movie. I think it's a very badmovie for the reasons that I said M in this debate. But again I I enjoytalking about it on both levels. I enjoy having a conversation withsomebody whereits. I like this movie. I don't like this movie, Let's talk about,why we like it, why we don't like it as opposed to. I think this is a goodmovie. I don't think this is a good movie. Let's have like a formal debato.I like both those fronts, and I think that we land on different sides of this,but I really enjoyed hearing why you liked Tlj as well as some of the defenses onon the objective value of the movie M. I think I'm going to say somethingsimilar. I will make a very hot take statement of this is my favoritestarwarst movie, and I think it is my favorite star wars ma be because of howit makes me feel and how it makes me react on an emotional level. Well, Iyou know. Obviously I have wonderful nostalgiac memories of running aroundwith a Ra wrapping paper Tube and Bonking, my Jistteron, the head,because that that was my wiht savr as a child as her lifeseer's room yeah.Absolutely you always had to be like. We need rape as many presents aspossible RIGTSO. So well. I have nostalgicmemories of the original tarlogy. I have nonstalgent limories even of theprequal Trylogiese. I was thirteen when the episode one came out yeah, so I wasstill pretty young when this came out and hadn't watched a lot of movies. Atthat point, I didn't recognize the problems. I was just like: Oh yeah,more star wars. For me, I think the emotional impact that I get from thelast jet ee is greater than any of the other star wars, films and that's whyit's? My favorite L, also Um kind of ECHO. What Grigg said this is thisparticular film is Mi Star Wars, but...

...it's not somebody else's star wars andthat's fine. I think he can make the same argument with a lot of these otherbig franchises that have had generational gaps in their content likestartren. I I think particularly about my friend's daughter, who's about fiveor six and she watches storm wars and she's. Like I love way, she is so bwaveand beautiful and and like I think, one that's adorable too, I remember being alittle girl and being in feeling really lonely, because I knew no other girlsthat loved Star Wars at all. It was. I was twelve when I made a friend thatwas a girl that let star wars too, and I liked it as much as I did for me likeI, my favorite thing about this sequel trilogy is Halloween twent and fifteen.All of my friends, little girls or they're, all general, lea they're,Princessla, theyr raythey're. You know all all of these New Star Wars. Ladies,I was like wow like if I ever have a little girl she's, never going to knowwhat it's like to grow up and be the only girl in the room when it comes toner stuff, and that makes me incredibly happy. So I think we wouldn't have thatwithout the last Ye. You know more ISO, I again one of the most biggestfrustrations which continued into rise, the Skywalker, which will definitelytalk about when we got that discussion, was that the last yeat. I just didn'tpay off any of the character stuff that I was hoping would happen from forceWaen. I was like hear you ll these interin characters. You Got Ray, yougot fin, you got Po. I really want to see how these characters develop andlike take on their own thing, and then I just feel like that. Just didn't getpaid off, especially especially FINANPO, especially FININPO. I think there wassome interesting stuff that just really felt flat for me and again, where itcomes in this trilogy, this whole Chilgy, that's just comple and hin gohere. It mess makes it worse for me, Becaus when I saw it, I enjoyed it andthe more I thought about it tomorrow was like that. Didn't make sense. WTHATdidn't make this Wa. Why did this happen? Why would you do that? And so Ijust got anger and angry until I was like okay, I don't. I I've officiallymoved from. I enjoy that movie too. I actually don't enjoy this movie anymore,even though I had some really cool moments. EEN, though I had some reallyinteresting things, but I think that the idea that hey, even if you okay,let's let's just say for for sake of argument- that Blacha is objectivelythe worst star was ever the fact that you have that emotional attahmint to itmakes it the best doars movie ever, and I think that's one of the wonderfulthings about Philm um art in general, I mean yeah or in general, is that artcan move you emotionally. So, even if so so, when you're talking to SOMON LKe, I don't understand how they could like something. That's so bad, listen,bunny get over yourself, but I do think. There's one thing thathappened: inless s that you can't defend, ryon straight ICED FASTMA. Shedidn't get to do anything. I was so disaphointed. Well, you know why e e Fae didn't give her a fair shake. Er, no Jedgy didn't either know fastwe gobobafed, it so hard, and I was so excited for her an why. I don'tunderstand why you write gwendolen Evan Crisy, a Cheqk, whosyo Hasto. DONOTHING! Nothing you tefast part is. It could have on't want to Breakin, itcould have not even been Gwinlan. Grissy will never know I as suppose, to be been a comberbatch. They al like doer in the sobmage fest.We need more, ladies and so lets ad Fatma, and then they had her do nothingthat was Ik electriss early hog, a really cool potential character. Let'sjust hope that would get a fasterer series, 'cause Landalarans, paying offall R. All our by saying the past monopoly is really really good. It'sit's a you find out how Fastmovi came Fasmo, which is which is really cool.That's it's like star. Wars Meets Mad Max Verie road, which is awesome so onwatch that movie it. I know it be a really cool movie. The Kelly Thomson'sFathma m short series in the comics is pretty good. I've read that too you getyou find out. How fast me got out of the trash o actor. Basically Tek, one of the deto Wat o a Ouo e were G. I've killed them this crew toget Pai yeah, but yeah, and that's like that's not justthis movie or Orthe jucy movie. Rs has a habit of of building up some reallycool characters and then just being like, we don't have ime for them. Yeah,it's overfe, it's fresh to Fasthma, but but hey both Ot. It might actually gethis chance now in Mando season too, and will fast we get her chance again, theantilareor stuff, I'm not counting that, although Mantorian an silly have a takethat Mandlaran going to start going downhill, I I don't want it to fierce bin Il Really Asl, I'm hopefulfor Mando. It's because it's in the hands of people who love Star wors, aTro whohave said we're open to what fans are saying like we're opened tofeedback from FA. Well, I I would say you need to be open to Pegaic, but youdo so. I tonsideoflike Yor Hol onsoris, the Righte, Dey Walker. It was alaundry list, hear all the things family WIC, Ot grumpy. I don't thinkanfanboys wanted Palperton to come back.

I don't! I don't know. If y you thinkthat people were very happy about it, but nobody like noand, that's. Thepoint is like hear all the things you're grumpy about we're going to givethem to you yeah, actually that sucked. So, let's do something different N, yeah well, Familie, don't know whatthey want until until you get it yeah yeah and like no, that's not what Iwanted. I E that Ein' want them to have happened in the first place, Inin themthe way he did by the end of the day. What we want is a good story, well told,and I don't think any of the sequel movies ultimately hit really truly hitthat mark of a good sorbotal. I think they're they're, all they're, all it'sfunny it'. All umny fought in their own way. Hom Ad wished that they justweren't star wars, movies like if it was just like a story about spacetravel like Tlj, could have been really interesting and evoked all thoseemotions, an I probably could have enjoyed it, and but the fact that itwas like you're kind of crossing all these lines that have already beendrawn, like y you', got Youe gotto operate within that you've. Gottohopefully tell this coherent story across several movies to wherecharacter arts makes sense and, like you, you'r Youre, using characters thatwe can relate to overseverovies, I suppose to like introduce a character,kill him off entered it like he almost like he just wanted his own stuff. Likehe introducehis rose, he introduces Holdo and it's like nobody knows thesecharacter like it's hard to connect, not 'cause, I'm a guy and they're agirl, but it's hard to connect. Alan ARD UP, killed, Holo so right and again-and I always got sidelined in rid ro. Ereal Rosegut kill how much D andthat's he thing I we don't know I mean. Obviously there was clearly not enoughdone on the back end for this entire trillagy of Novies, but how much ofthis is the directors kind of pushing these different characters or writingthese different characters? Like I mean what I do, the IESO- I don't I knowabout her. I don't know about the J J ones, but I know that Ryan was veryhands on for the writing of EST abut so and then they're like what W did. Whatdid make sense to me? No, this is this is going to be a BACD HANDI COP. Idon't understand why, after the backclash that Le last, yet I got D Ewas like okay he's getting his anchology. However, I will say after IU,watching Nimes out, I'm actually kind of excited for riing to do is Ontriog,where I h there's nothing for him to spoil they're only just yea ges libecohere, and I think the other challenge that you're running into is like youare you you are writing within these gywalker saga. Yeah, I'm glad t that'sover. Yes, yes and like there's, there's a certain amount where there'scertain degree to where nothing is going to make one hundred percent ofPeople Happy T. Oh, I agree. I agree. I just I think J J Stayed Way too safeand Ryan Ryan tried to sufvert something he din't understand. I thinkthose, ultimately, those are the big flaws of of the big pitfalls, for bothof those directors. Is that Ryan didn't have a good enough grasp on Star Wars.The The star was universe to make a a completely coherent film and Jj triedto pander too much and so and they both fall flat on different for differentreasons, even though I think there's a lot of good stuff in them. I thinkthere's a lot of interesting character, moments and interesting things thathappen. It's just realistically, I think th, even if you're going toswitch to ryon as the second director, you should have had them sit down andsay: here's WH, here's w here's our arc. This is what want to happen. How ithappens. Maybe it doesn't matter so much, but at the end of the day,characters start here and end here and then you can go while and I think thatwould have saved the franchise. But I'm excited to see where starwars goes next,because if weas we've seen when you get out of the Skywalker Saga, you get goodstuff. So, let's, let's let' end it's becausewe're 're we're going to run over Um. That was our takes on the last SediRMEMBER. If you like the movie, then it's a good movie. If you don't likethe movie, then it's a bad movie. No one can tell you otherwise. So youtalked about the the throne room scene right if you like, freeze frame it andbreak it down. It's like a terribly chorograph fight scene, but I say it'still fun to watch Eso. You can enjoy it and you can hate it for two differentreasons: yeah, so move ar is ubjective at the end of the day. I think it. Themain point are this subjective and it's fine to like a movie. It's Min Inot liemovie. I do think you should be able to explain why you like a movie, why youdon't like a movie, So yeah plushus wrap up actually work cor. People findyou allright. You can follow me on Facebook, facebook, dotcom, slash thenerdy blocker. You can teek me at the nerdy blogger. You can read my columnon Fangerilish dotcom. Each Wednesday called Hash tag way back Wednesday andyou can read my block. neardy blogging, dot work, press dotcom. Have you doneDemociaminio I haven't as to WATC TEMBLISO man. Now, that's a movie,that's bad, that I love yeah. You can find me on facebook atchapter. One films, that's one one, not the number! You can email me Greg atchapter, one films, D, Biz check on my website chapter, one films, Dt Biz, M.F, I M on Youtube. Just Greg, Princez or mennathaniels cooking show, which isthe kitchen chemist, which has a new episode coming out later this week.It's real going to be really good, taste testing, sereal m. You could alsobuy man n instagrament chapter under...

...score, oenny underscore films, and I mypersonal twitter, is at Holy Golam like the Poman N, not Whyptoli, Golem, it'sa it's a complex reference that nobody guess I was going to say. I I thoughtabout it. Ayar talking about IBCAL, I it's! No! It's like it's like a Jewishmysticism thing, never sed of Gargos. About that. I know W at it is saoyes. The goalan was like these clay masters.She put like a scroll in the mouth, an Ri Mon, the IT's. It's actually deepeerthat I see you know where I see that pop up a lot Japanese mango yeah,interesting, like a lot of Mana, there's reference to Golens in the verin the juish, MSS sysem sense anyways. If you want to tell us your thoughts onthe last yet I obviously just saying bad move in to hear it. It's not goodenough for saying there are women in Ei like it get out of here. Wedon't. Wedon't we don't like your. We don't lack your cond. We don't serve your kind inhere, Youre Oy detroids I waiht outside o Wan, outside which I make it likeweor with the joits orderang drink. I say the COIS keep getting wasted andwrecking the Bar Dan Esa Ha Dok, but you can you can teed us at dearly,debated or shoot us an email, Daly debated, Atgmo TCOM, so until next timemade the horse be with you. for, though, with her and Illso with you, you'R Hyou Ali Go O. I y Lok a.

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