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Dearly Debated
Dearly Debated

Episode 12 · 1 year ago

Episode 11 - Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This episode we're talking about the yang to a hero's yin: Bad guys! Greg is a pathway to powers some might consider...unnatural, Jason just wants to watch the world burn, and Nathanael dusts off the volcano fortress!

It. I'm ZANGIEF, I'm bad guy. ZANGIEF, I relate to your Ralph. When I hit bottom, I was crushing men's skull like Sparrow egg between my thighs, and I think, why do you have to be so bad, Zankie? Why can't you be more like good guy? Then I have a moment of clarity. If ZANGIEF is good guy, who will crush men's skull like Sparrow's egg between ties? And I say, ZANGIEF, you are bad guy, but this does not mean your bad guys. Rice. I'm sorry, I just you lost me there, dumb bad guy, Jankie Shane, labels not make you happy. Good, bad. You must love you. Now let's close out with the bad guy after me. I am bad. That's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one. So welcome to with you. And they okay, so disrespected, right, Daniel, got the please wait finger from Greg M. welcome to dearly debated, the show where you're entitled to your opinion, even if it's wrong. I'm your host, Nathaniel Levinson. Oh Man, I was waiting for you. All Right, name right, you're right. I don't even know I thought of mind, but since I was introducing myself first, you know what you also owed. It's Nathaniel Levinson and I am Greg now friends and I am Jason. Why so serious, Daniel? And we today are going to be talking about billins. But before that, this week in history, maybe for the week of August three in one thousand, eight hundred and fifty four. Sorry, actually must start with the oldest one. In seventeen seventeen, France and Russia signed a friendship treaty. As both signers were of short stature, the treaty became known colloquially as the we comrade treaty. That was an incredibly clever joke that none of you appreciate. We Comrade, I think. I think you're entire we theys. I'M gonna I'm gonna let that linger until you guys laugh. We comrad ha ha ha ha, mail ha ha. In eight hundred fifty four, Henry David Thoreau, publisher, publish it Walden, but the first in a long running series of visual observational puzzles where the goal was to find a particular man, Walden monks, to see of other characters ALD and his believes be modeled after thorow himself, and also I have mixed up with where's Waldo? In Two Thousand and twelve Oscar pistorius became the first amputy runner at the Olympics. He was initially denied entry when officials noticed his prosthetics have rocket powered skates attached to them. He was permitted to compete upon the removal. In a later interview, Pistoria said, look, show me where in the rule book, you kid, says you can't strap ten pounds of jet fuel to your shoes. It's not doping. I didn't ingest anything evil. Knebl would have gotten away with it and I'm nothing but respect for Oscer pistorious. I just thought it was funny joke. All right. So, with that Malarky out of the way, villains. So what makes a good meal? Okay, let me just start with this. Who is the first character you remember and thinking like Udhessa bad guy. Oh, he's he's a bad guy. I'll tell you who. Mine was Rothbart in, the princess brother right in the swan princess. So I'm first. That's the first time I remember watching a movie being like, oh my gosh, he's so evil. Is, is it? He's an angry dude. He's also got a food Manchu, which is he does and any folding he rocks. He literally looks like like Alternate Hul Covin around there, but with darky. He was walking around going yeah, brother, man, I first one whof that. You can remember, I guess, a kid being like he's doing bad things, mom, he's doing bad things. You know it might be it might be emperor palpatine. I remember being very scared of him as a kid. I just remember it thinking. I remember it's funny, this is, this is this is a true thing. I used to think that his electrocution in episode six, that's what like, like the more he did that would turn you into looking like him. And Ironically, around in episode three that happens. But as a kid, when I would watch the scene where Luke's getting electrocuted, I was like it wasn't necessarily that that like the way that they did in episode three, like he would just start looking like the emberor I thought it was going to turn him evil, like that was just actual evil coming out of him. I just I found him to be a very menacing person because I found darth vader to be kind of scary, and here was this guy that darth vader was like bowing...

...down to and like in his shadow and very scared of, and he just uses super scary to me as a kid. Probably the first one I remember. Hmm, thank for me, it's probably Jaffar from Disney's a plan. Who I reference? Thank you, man. Either that or any villain character that appeared in Batman animated. WHO's the first film? It's joker, isn't it? Man The first? Oh Yeah, man bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think joker shows. I'm just thinking that Rothbart is its essentially man, kind of a man, but kind of a knock up. least it's not what it seems. We gotta Watch the movie. It's so good. Is Good. Yeah, all these are going right over my head. It's Bros, swan princess, so good, sleeping on swan princess and three, and apparently there were like seven of them. Oh Gosh, did you know? We have to watch them all? You you hear what this apparently, at some point they switched to like d animation and it's about really really a hold us up for it. I can't imagine John Bob as a d we got to get off this topic, is poor Jason. He's lost. So first's am sending all right, back on, am Sam, I am you like reading. Okay, so for me it was the Emperor Jason, it was man bat and mine was you. So man that Rothbart, who's kind of Man Bat, kind of Man Bat. Yeah, I think villains are interesting just because they've evolved, even in like storytelling in any facet, whether it's movies or books or whatever. Like like having a like a diabolic villain who has like motive and purpose is kind of like a newer age thing. It's definitely like the phase where now is like that's big time. Right now it's like the cool thing to do to have a villain who's like yeah, I get kind of get on board with this, right, because this what makes a good villain, right, makes a good villain is is to have a villain who whose motives are all good, everything's going well. You like all right, good, hate the bad guys, hate injustice, and then they're like therefore burned down half the world. You're like, okay, I was on board with you until the last part. Right. That's that's that's what makes good villains, because you can follow their motives and you can even see. That's why breaking bad is such a good show, because it shows this guy who's kind of like, like of always kind of a Dorky chemistry professor or just to teach her, not even a professor, and slowly throughout all of these seasons, he turns into this like Mafia boss essentially, and you're like wow, that was a really slow progression. I even found myself like on board with you. You were like some of the rougher parts where I'll end then like I had to eventually just jump off board with this guy and let him continue becoming evil, because I liked him until this point. And so it was such a cool depiction of like how, like how a villain becomes a villain, you know, and and movies that do, in books and things like that do good job. Really do make you tow that line a little bit. But the kind of clearly state it can't be like to write it can it can't be spider man to the amazing spider man too, where you're, like the villains, actually just a normal guy who, like everybody, just Sean and like it, like it, like you guys are all jerks. You're still being jerks and like kind of try to repeat that in amazing spider man too, with Jamie Fox is care that's another so I start that you're talking about doc off because he's kind of. He's kind of, he's pretty. He's pretty other than the part where he's like the tentacles take over his mind. Well, yeah, the tentacles are taking over as mine. That's why doc doc is crazy. But he's also like harming people and he's like yeah, he's yeah, killing its spider man. To you can say I'm sorry and do Nice. You actually did correct, and right afterwards, but correct. My point being that you can't go too far in either direction. You go too far in one direction and you just got insane, crazy bad guy. Why is he bad? Because I'm bad. Okay, not very compelling. I was gonna say Amazing Spider Man Too, had extra villains thrown in there so, you know, really good. You also had kind of a Goblin, you had a robot rhino man, it was such a good movie. They will they're like, you know what's good in a movie? A villain. So what's triple? Well, three times as good as that. Three villains. Yeah, just like in spider man, three. Yeah, all Spiderman people was like, it's like it's like this much better than to murderous in right, because these things like email. I swear. I think those old marvel movies have this formula when they secretly want to end the franchise. They're like if, if it's, if it's Xmen, they're like just so phoenix in there, it'll end everything, and it's they did both times. It thin. It was like, get me out. Yeah, it it ruined both of them. And then you the same thing as spider man. You like a just overflow with villains and one and one single movie like we did last time. It worked it again. And the thing is in like a series you can do you can have multiple villain arcs because you have a lot more. You have eight hours or twelve hours rather than who hours. Think about hours. It really has to. Just think of how good the Dark Knight did with that, where it's like so subtly you slide to face in there, which, in my opinion, toothface is a strong enough villain too. He could have held his own movie. Yeah, and he didn't need to get like he was kind of wasted pretty quickly. But it didn't ruin anything. No, I mean is it was. It was done subtly, it was done well and you had to character arcs and that was kind of like Joker's whole point and he proved his point through creating a second villain, which is really interesting and like it was just like you can do it well, yeah, but yeah,...

...cool spider man movies. Yeah. So, so I think you have you have a couple of different villain archetypes that you can have. You can have, obviously, the one who's just a foil to the to the the hero. Sure, like the joker. It's not. There's nothing redeeming about the joker, but he's a very interesting counterpoint to Batman. You can obviously have the the conflicted villain or the villain that you're kind of like, know, he's right, like kill monger, the conflicting Ville and like doc cock. I'm think of a one who's a villa fan. When he was he was my example, like like my my point, where it's like, okay, here's a guy who did come from a world where overpopulation did end everything. Right, so the mode of their makes some sense to say hey, this is a problem, maybe we should address it for move I'm with I'm with you on that, on that front, like Yekay, than knows. How's it going? I'm Greg I'm with you. Okay, wow, that was a really big problem. Ended an entire planet. Let's talk, let's have this discussion. Let's go and talk in he's like, Noe, we're going to kill half of everybody, and it's like I'm jumping off board, man, I'm no longer on your team. Yeah, and like that's like that. That's a compelling villain that you can follow. Let's let's circle back to Fano's in a bit. Okay, right, and then you can have, obviously, the villain that's just so cartoonishly evil that you're just like, who is this person? You know, how do you get to this level of you know, imagine like like inglorious fast or Hitler's just like throwing a Tantrum. HMM, that that's those villains are just ridiculous. Let me give you an example of one of those. So there was this book called Angel Maker. The the villain is something I can kind remember. It has something to do with basically, someone created these mechanical bees. Now, don't ask me how this works. They explained it, but I don't remember how word is, sally sort of Black Mirror. Yeah, exactly, these mechanical bees. It removed free will because they told you what was going to happen, so everyone knew what was going to happen. So therefore it removed free well, because it actually raised some really interesting philosophical points. It did, it handled them very poorly, but it raised them interesting philosophical points. But there was a villain and this villain was so stupidly evil. He kept throwing in scenes where he's like torturing or he's crucifying a priest and like, Haha, where's your God now? And it serves zero purcose other than for him to be ridiculously cartoonishly evil. And I like it's not good characterization. I can't, I can't. Yeah, shoot this guy, someone, just like this guy, in the head and I feel zero remorse, like there's no it's just like yeah, kill this guy, get him out of the picture. There's zero remorse, there's zero thinking about it, like just carpet bomb this dude. Knew Him, no question right, you're just no conflict here, just will kill this man. That's why I like when you're watching a movie it's almost distracting sometimes when you get to that point of like what would like, what would what would the purpose be if this villain even like got through with their plan, like you have to think that. And if that happens and you go that wouldn't make any sense, like life for them wouldn't be any better. What they have no motive, then that's a poorly see in this is this is what it not to get back to star wars, but definitely were going back of star wars because it's such an existing of poor writing. So you have clearly detailed this new first order that does not use clones anymore. Right, they use these people that are that programmed since birth, you know, quote unquote. But then you have scenes where he's like, like hucks is supposedly giving him a motivational speech. Question Mark. But why is he even there talking to them if they don't need to be motivated? Like they need to be motivated. What are they motivated for? In the past you had droids and clone owns the distinct reason that what they're doing like nobody would get behind that like like you have. You have the the the odot original trilogy makes some sense. You have this governmental hierarchy that's ruling the galaxy. You probably have plenty of loyalists. They're like hey, this like things are working out for most. Many had sold revers exactly like that makes sense. You have the old ones, where it's clones versus droids, very clearly, because, like it's just serving one person's purpose. And so you have this new this new like the first order, and you're not even sure what they're going for, like, like you're not. You're not sure what they're like, that they have no plans, there anything in the problem with that is that your you've created all these villains, these foot soldiers, that you're questioning what they believe in, and you're and you're like wait, if these people aren't clones, which you've you're very distinctly said, why are they doing what they're doing? Like, what are they like? There's no empire anymore, not serving anything, like like the governmental thing that holds the power right now is the republic, even if you did, quote unquote, destroy it, like there's no still you haven't explain any motive to where, at the end it was just a bunch of like toys being smacked together, and you like, who cares? Who Wins all this, like there's no motives, but other side just a bunch of people that like cool armor and shooting things and missing clearly the things and Mandalorian. They instantly explain my idion and then they're like yeah, the empire still has like they're still sections of people who have power and are trying desperately to hold onto it and not you know, they don't have a lot of power, but they're still kind of medicine becau. I have all this tech. Yeah, and in one and in one conversation, in one in one line, almost you get more details behind motive than anything you get in the in the in the sequel trilogies, where he...

...goes well, you know, the star systems that are still allied with the empire are thriving far more than the other ones, right, and that's all he says. So you're like, okay, that's that. There is some motive there. There's some people that are like hey, well, like governmentals, like like really, yeah, the system is working. Well, it's kind of like, you know, this crazy communist like that, like they're just like it's this dictatorship where they're just telling US exactly how we need to live or otherwise they're going to kill us or blow us up. But it's working out for us. So we're kind of enslave or we're living good lives, and it's like so now you have these counter arguments. Now you can make sense that there would be a powerful in a week. So this is something that's always bothered me about star wars. I could take a brief aside. In a world where you have such advanced droids, how does anyone do manual labor when droids are clearly so cheap and ubiquitous? How is anyone doing jobs other than droid repair? Like, seriously, it begs the question why are they using all these slaves on on whatever that planet was? Yeah, like like today we have increased, increased mechanization, but it's really expensive. Roads are a diamond dozen in Star Wars Universe and they're much more versatile. Well, you even get it in the original start episode, for the first thing they're doing is buying droids to do manual labor right the first like it's right off the bat you have the people, I mean they're kind of doing that, like like you don't really see what Luke does it on the quote unquote for army. But yeah, but essentially they're just managing the droids that run, you know, that do all the stuff. That all makes sense. You really don't get get a look into like people, because even in the prequels, you get episode one, you don't see Anakin and Schmid doing work. Well, but you know the Anakin's there to repair and droy right exactly like it, and you can assume that that's their function. And you get in you see literally droids everywhere, like that's that is what Tattoo and looks like and that makes sense as manual labor. Yeah, sure, right. And then you go all the way into the sequels and then you arrive at this one planet and, just to make it seem more menacing, you're like there's a bunch of kids slave workers here, and you're like why is this really rich planet with all of these are I know, I know why, because the adults like, what does this technology do? Kid, fix my computer, who's pretty again, I solve the problems. Think it's like later it's just they just need there's just a lot oftes, like my Wifi is real bad. I was trying to swipe right. What happened? Kids Slay Boar, come fix this, I mean. But yeah, essentially, just try to tie it back into Villainy, Villain Rey, villain, villain villa. Anyway, Lana's villain stuff, philosophy. When you're when you're writing a villain, you do have to you have to have make it make sense, unless you're going to be, in yours, going to be intentional about not making things like the joker in the dark knight right like it's like they say. That's the whole conundrum. Is the Batman's trying to figure out why like this. None of this makes sense. There's no motive. There's down mode of intellly realizes there isn't motive. He's an anarchist, like he's literally here because he enjoys the back and forth. He wants to be your Auntie. You, like some men, just want to watch the world where? Yeah, exactly, and and you can. You can do a good job creating a character like that. But if you don't, then you need to do a good job explaining motive. You get off hating on Star Wars. Let's get back to bill and stack. Yeah, okay, let's go ahead and circle back to Thanos. Okay, okay, so now, obviously there's a big difference between movie Thanos and and Comic Book Than Os. Sure everything was a completely different mode. Yeah, he's one more cheesy, which Jason correct me when I misspeak. But Comic Book Fan Os essentially was in love with the Avatar of death. Death have a grim reaper and to woo her offered her half of the souls in the universe pretty much, and she was like, mousn, that's weird. No, she yeah, pretty much. And so then when he's fighting the WHO most the avengers on I seeking me was when he was fighting super half of the Marble Book is a Ford did it was like Batman and the thing and Goku, sorry, and volts on robocop ro coup and the Arnold Schwarzenegger was like yeah, and than I was like Na son. But he basically like almost takes his ball and goes home. Well, you know, that didn't work and kind of salts like he does get beaten. He I see it as, and Jason you can correct me wrong, I see it as Standis. It's just like so depressed that he lets himself loose. Pretty much. He achieves his goal and then he's just like well, what do I do now? And then he retires to a farm, and I think that's yeah, I think that's actually really good, a really good thing of like hey, look, villain, you accomplish your goal. What now? Arming? Yeah, that that's but the thing is that those kind of what I brought you. Like the point two villains is you have to play in your mind. Okay, whatever this villains plan is, to imagine it works out, what happens. And even with Thano's that, even if that's a little cheesy, at least they explain it to say, listen, this is what he's here to do. That that's really it. Like he's looking forward to resting. He's like a normal but like, like, like you'd imagine yourself, man, if I accomplished what I thought I needed to accomplish, I'm just going to go relax, and he's...

...like you, I'm totally just going to go chill, like if I can actually accomplish this, it's like it takes up somebody with really strong will. If I can get this done, I'm just going to rest, and it's okay. That makes sense in my opinion, even though I'm a bigger star wars fan than I am a marvel fan, I think there's a little more depth to him, at least his ultimate plan. Then there is the emperor. Even though the emperor is an extremely detailed character over like a bunch of movies and they do really good job telling a story, my whole thought is like like, is he not like having an epiphany at this point where he's like because he wins, right, like in episode four, five and six he's won everything, like like he controls the galaxy beginning episode for he now has control of all the star systems, he's got his Super Gun, like nobody's moving and it's just like, dude, at this point, are you like not finding Jesus or something like? Are you not just like Wow, like I'm unfulfilled here with all this power and like into somebody that had a lot of depth as a character? I was always just kind of like man, he just really is soulless, like there's nothing there. I don't know. I think it's because he was he was grabbing power and then you have to hold on to that power, right, and I guess that's his only it's an only maintaining power. Yeah, is it? Is it? And that that's usually and then what's a pretty fun to luke as a potential successor. Yeah, I think. I think he also enjoys tormenting vader's other. Yeah, no, Willie subordinates. I think this if is a strange kind of villain legend type thing, where it's like there's always two of them and it's the way they work. They often kill each other. It's just kind of you know, it was just kind of weird. You the bit of Laura's a little. Well, Palpati told US why. I mean because you collect almost. That's definitely not it and is officially not going to be. Cannon. That is not how it works. Really Hope it's not going to begin. Yeah, it's not official yet. It's not official yet. And also the fail of Horse. He's so I mean, I would like that they can get us out. If you can get us away from there, you know what, if it gets us away from the last Jedi, if it declares last out, I kno, cannon, I'm all for it. Oh, if anything, those three movies are going to be sealed in their own universe, marked by words. I don't know who you think somebody could show up and wave a magic wand and make it disappear and Greg will be like, yeah, Star Wars, yeah, I would my villain. My villainry towards those three has no purpose. Is just he's he's a cartoonishly evil against them. Some of men just want to watch the but so than has. Okay, so I have a question and I don't necessarily think this is I don't think it necessarily matters to any of the stuff. Okay, so he says, I snap my fingers and I just disappear half of every living thing. They just cease to exist. Yes, that doesn't actually fix the problem because you've now reduced the resources by half as well. You've literally not changed anything. So now in the in the world's I'm assuming he was, I'm probably overthinking this, but I'm assuming he was doing the same thing that he was doing on the planets, which is wiping out half of the sentient population. And so he snapped his fingers and half the sentient life disappears. That you still have all the animal and plant life. But don't don't you get you see animals dissolved. Am I wrong? I don't. I don't think so. I think you only see people. Didn't they mention something about me and maybe that's why I rocket survived. Yeah, and also if it's at random. If it's at random, then well, he sent you. Will Group died, but he's said again, sent you. Yeah, but so, and I don't want to get really are winning on you guys. But right, so I'll say. You snap your fingers and half of the healthiest section of the population disappears and the people that are left all have crippling wasting illness. You didn't realp everyone. Well, also, another thing you didn't account for is like how many people died because you killed pilots and dry right, right, right, yeah, the collaterals. Not Posh about like like that. We're doing like a central jobs that keep people all the doctor is that died while they were saving somebody. And like they obviously did, because in post credit scene you see helicopters crashing and yeah, I mean it, it clearly reason. It counters. Okay, SAP my fingers is helicopter get highly disappears to the two people on their died. So that counts into the total. has like a real mind stuff. He did the hold the numbers floating in front of him. He's sitting there about to get chopped his head off. He's like I did. The Math Guy's really fair. Really sad thing is when the hulk snaps his fingers and half the people come back to the people that are in the plane come back. The Cute Wilhelm Scream. I got them on too, I did. You know what I did find kind of silly. This is a little bit of a riffle. Will come right back. I just watched spider man far from home again and I found it kind of ironic that every single like, like meaningful character in that whole entire one didn't blink, like they all. They all you know or the yeah, they all blipped or whatever. That's what they called it. Like every meaningful character, character and spider man blipped so that they could still be the same. I like it. I'll do like the lets a little. It would be a lot more interesting if like half of the right how maybe cars like come back into like beard, if you're like flash or is...

...no longer whatever, or his buddy is like super old but still in school. That, I have been a funny thing. Or if you know, MJ was older, so you gets a new love interest, whatever you want to do, but like words, eat teachers, everybody, any character you'd seen already was, you know, was already there and young. It's kind of like, man, even the teacher's wife didn't blip. You pretended like she did, like she would ran away with their yoga teacher or something. Yeah, and non obviously at to our to to our movies is not going to be able to cover the full ramifications of what happens when half the things the universe disappear and then reappear five years later. Yeah, so, all right, so villains. So so I want to, you know, touch on briefly heroes that turn into villains. Okay, and how long should you spend on that? And I think you know where I'm going with this. Probably probably guess. So we'RE gonna go back to Star Wars. Yeah, baby, so now again everything. They flesh it out a lot in the clone wars of Anakin struggling with the dark side, if he is watch something. Yeah, what's the Colon? Yeah, it's they flowas obviously it is, but once you get through season one the story will carry it past. Yeah, I'm in season three. It's good. It's very good, and I'll keep waiting for darth Maul to come back because I know he comes back, which in so lo I was like, what the hell, darth Maul's alive. is almost like you didn't watch clone wars. No, I didn't watch clone wars because Disney puzzles and out of that time, even with clone wars. Yeah, yeah, but so so clone wars takes, you know, seven seasons, hours and hours and hours. His show Anakin, always not following the rules because he thinks it's more efficient, always doing his own thing, and then having to struggle with dark side. He liked tortured a guy really early on. He tortures the guy to get information because of his units going to die if they don't get that information. He so so you see him develop darkside tendencies a lot that he keeps hidden in the so three, which you gonna just watched it and it really is as simple as now. I understand it hinges on his fear of losing pad me, but it goes from zero to one hundred so fast where he's like you're the Sith Lord, I'm gonna go turn you in, and then makes wind is fighting chief machine shoe and Hankins, like I need him, cuts off his arm when new dies and he's like okay, now I'm going to do literally anything you tell me. Like that makes it like to see that does. And then he starts murdering children. That doesn't give me as much whiplash as it gives you. Just because like so, like I'm writing a star wars story and the whole idea behind. Why? Yet I are so strict and like, and, and this is, this, is, this is a problem, like this is the problem that that Qui gone saw in the Jedi. He's like, listen, we need to be able to feel and have emotions like these are good things, he's are good, loving things, and the Jedi feared this so much. Is Because, when, okay, so you're learning to become a Jedi. Hypothetically, you have the force and we're we're training you to use that force as a weapon. We're training you to become a weapon, but this weapon is distinctly tied to your emotions in a way that it will increase your emotions and those emotions will increase your power. So they have to be extremely careful with how they're doing. This is why it's so strict, like you can't get married, you can't do this, you get like I've written a lot of like dialog between characters having this discussion, and it like there's this like it's really cool because you don't like we could week me and you could both end up on very different in spectrums of what we think is right what we think is wrong, and it can was clearly farther towards the middle, but he proves the point with that you're creating this thing inside of you that's really, really powerful and you need to be careful because all these small things you think that you're doing, which you get evidence to even throughout episode three, and they are small. You are right. It does go from small things to murdering children, which is which is extreme. But I think that shows the power of the force and it shows what the Jedi are so scared of, because they're like, as soon as you give into this dark side, you have to be a slave to it, right, like like it controls you. If you want the power that it promises, you have to do what it says. And he's fully in at that point. He knows. He's like, I can't go back now. I just killed a master, and that was kind of his first step. And this is the emperor saying, all right, well, now that I have you. I need you to prove yourself. Essentially, go to the worst thing I can think of and go kill kids. It makes sense to me. I'll do one for me. It made sense and I thought it was a it was a powerful moment because you can even see Anakin like he's gritting his teeth and he's like, oh my gosh, like I'm all in now, like I'm all in to save this girl that I love and this is gonna suck and it's gonna be yes, and I was in the same time. He's so as soon as that happens, he's instantly so remorseless. If he if he was like maybe he's not. Maybe useless, yes, he is, maybe he maybe he hides a kid away or or tries not to kill every single one of those small children. He's not remorseless, because you see him on most of far two scenes later and he's bawling with nobody around him. He knows what he's doing. He's dealing with it. And then Pat may comes and he even reasons with her. He's like, let's just run away, but I can overhell the INN keep you. I mean like like this is a guy who's he's one of the few characters, at least the Jedi characters, that you actually see go through these things. And I mean he is, he's hurting, but he's also dealing with things and force...

...powers that we have to just accept there different than human being and he's okay. But that was never explained, right. So from the viewers perspective, if you're not thinking, I mean, I didn't get the idea that going to the dark side of force. Okay, so this is a problem I had in the Flash, the reason I stopped watching the flash. So in the flash and I've had I've had discussions with other people and they don't agree with me. We've talked about this. Will find out. I don't know. You're so in the flash they go to an alternate earth, right, this is the CW flash. Jow. In this alternate earth they find out that Caitlyn of the alternate earth is killer frost. You got powers. He had like some she had some crazy traumatic stuff happened. She got superpowers and Gee's evil, right, or she's a villain. She's not evil. She's a villain, okay, and they're even able to reason with her and you know, she ends up helping them out. Q to flashpoint. The FLASHPOINT FLASH GOES BACK SAVES HIS MOM. It has horrible ramifications in the timeline. One of those is that Caitlyn's ice powers get activated. When her ice powers are activated, she is evil, not a villain. She just turns evil and I couldn't handle that. I was like, this is so stupid. None of every other person got their powers and either use side, oh I can do a lot of good with these powers, the good guy team, or Oh, I can rob more banks with the right all the all of all the villains they were. Almost all the villains they run into were criminals before they got their powers. But doesn't like like, I don't know much about killer frost, but is there something like like the people that made more DC savvy? Is there something to her powers that are little more like ravens or it's like a little more rolling? Not really really do they do you just kind of make that jump. I think later on. I'm not sad, I'm not defending and everything seen it. I think later on they give her like a tone it back and kind of bring it back in. But yeah, it was kind of it was weird and jarring. Yeah, it was weird that for evil's sake. Yeah, she would just like her powers would activate and then she'd be like, I don't kill everybody, like it doesn't make sense if she's feeling like a tug to the but it was so night and day and it was like more evil than alternate Caitlyn was, because they were again alternate Caitlyn, who was killer frost, explained how she became killer frost. It had to do with some trauma that she had that normal Caitlyn didn't have, like something terrible that happened to her, or some abuse or something like that, right, and that that led her down a path of crime and they were able to reason with her and they're like you're still kind of our Caitlyn, you're you just, you know, bad things happen, you made some bad decisions, and so they were actually able to reason with her. Normal Caitlyn. No, she's literally the wicked witch of the West. You like, Dude, how does that work? And here's my theory. I actually figured it out after think, after being angry about it for a long time, I solved it. Okay, her ice powers give her hypothermia, so she's not thinking properly. It's just cooling her brain down. Maybe that works because over the course of the show, you know, they have their you know, emotional talks with her and every episode and they slowly warm her heart. She becomes more normal. There you go. Are you go? Also, like star wars differs from that a lot. I know, I know, I know, I just, I just, I'm okay with with heroes turning evil as long as I can see. It has to happen slowly from me and and I get that there can be major and I'm trying to think of some or speakers now that I've we're talking about it. I'm not totally blanking on an example. But there are their instances of something major happens that this person says I'm against a hero, not necessarily like I'm going to be a villain. Now by like I'm a hero, that means I'm going to use team gonna Batman, Superman. Yeah, a little bit. All that's will you way more horible, way more for Um. Have you. Guys. Are Sorry. Good, I was I was going to say circling back to Anakin, one of the things with them is they do set up like all these little transgressions and episode three are, you know, so he can be with Pat may right and like he's breaking the rules and it's primarily having to do with her, and then his flip to the dark side is she's gonna die. So they do at least give him some most vase. Yes, I want see goes off that cliff. He's just like yeah, he's all in, but he's all in to save her. Yeah, they yeah, but then at the end he chokes her like five minutes later. He's like that's that's what the point? How does I know? How you like? It doesn't confuse me, you know. Yeah, me that he didn't spend and and it's Max. Obviously Max up, he was frustrates everybody's post to. Yeah, it's Max. Of Lucas wanted to build this out over a longer period of time, and then he's like sure, we're in the third movie quick. If the evil I don't even again, I'm still many yes, and there's proof of that, and it's called clone wars. No, but that's fine, but I'm still saying clone wars still ends with the beginning of episode three. Yeah, so you can't, you can't. You can't argue that like Lucas wanted more between episode three and end of episode or buildup of him being a more indication that he's ready to go to the dark side. Right, but this is this is a trilogy movie in which there is den I'm that it's past. You can fill that in. No, this, like said, you jump from two to three. There's no indication of how many years that was, right, but to...

...us, so near six years, not even just to one, has already led you to believe that he's on this path. You, okay, you know as a fan that he's already on this pasture. Like we're cheating as a fan. That's and that's the thing is he kind of cheated a little bit with with with his tear character development, because we know what's going to happen, right, and I'm not I'm not complaining, I'm just saying I think that's an example of if you just look at Anakin's character development, it happened very quickly. And if you want to lean on the force emotion stuff, that's fine, but I think that's not satisfactory answer for just a viewer who's not invested in the orse stuff. But like, well, you have to be. You have to be invested in the force stuff to watch that is because he literally chokes her two minutes later, and that doesn't make any sense at all. That will never make sense in never in any universe, no matter how much build up you do, unless he has to become darth vader and be separated from Padny, you know. But that's not why he like the it makes sense that he chokes her because he's turning to the dark side and he's realizing he's becoming evil and in it's consuming him and he destroys the very thing that brought him to the dark side. And now he's a character who's trapped and he had no longer has he any motivation. He's just there because he has to. He's already made his decision and that's the and he he had to become that character because in four, five and six, that's what he's telling Luke. He's not telling Luke, Luke, you got it wrong, man, you're on the wrong side, like over here, like we got it made, we're doing good things. He's telling Luke there is no hope for me. Stop telling me there's hope for me. There's no hope for mean. That's all he ever says, and so you have to create that character how do you create that character? Well, we've got it. Seduce him with the dark side and make it seem really, really good and through the dark side, blind him to where he makes these mistakes and then realizes it and you have this really corny no at the end of that movie. And he he also has never kid along the way. Did it create look really corny now you see, that is a character. Character is lost all hope. Unless they have all do you really have a great villain unless they have a really corny now yeah, it's fair caw. All right. Well, we could talk about dark vader and Star Wars, because the time nothing. I again, I just think it happens too quickly within the reds of the sith. I think attack of the clones is fine, building that, even if the enemy. We're right. I've I disagree what week wet. Look, let's change this way. That's why it's got dealing to another. That's why it's called. Yeah, this is good. I'm glad we have something, but is we mostly just agree on things. I'm glad. Oh, we knew we disagreed a lot on the prequels. No, sorry, all right. Well, let's try to get off stars or scope yes, let's go back to other let's go to movie villains. So we talked about in our horror episode about Hannibal Lecter, yeah, who is a fantastic villain. I don't think we need to I don't think we need to rehash that. Yeah, that's because we already talked about how phenomenal of the villain he is. What about what about individuals? Is there a villain that you think is done really well? Doesn't matter movie, written, books, anything like. Individually each of us, what's a villain that was done really well, that you really enjoyed? Does it have to be your favorite, because I know we could say you're forever. Just just highlight. Um, I think voldemort was a pretty good, like shadowy villain for a long time and then she transition rally position to him, from a shadowy specter or that kind of hovers over everything to a real force. And then I actually really love what she did where the Ministry of Magic is just like denying his yeah, that was really cool. What was his motive again? So voldemort just heat. Voldemort wants to take over the world and he wants to kill all the muggles. Muggle, that's okay. He hates mother. You're essentially he's essentially magic Hitler. Right. Yeah, it's the Chirochy of like if you're pure blood. Okay, so that's in any irony. Is that he's a happy one? Yeah, okay, yeah, I know he's. Definitely, and he's well told throughout those viies. Really get you get more of that in the books. Then you do it. Oh, I absolutely. I mean that's all I feel like he's. Yeah, that has to be the gays. I think the movies. Honestly, I think the Harry Potter movies doing fine. Those are great adaptations as far as like movie to book, books to movies go. Yeah, they're well, but I want to I want to do it a whole episode on Harry Potter's I don't want to go too into questions that I have about no, okay, so if Harry was saved by love, the first time anyone's ever sacrificed themselves for their childs. Nobody loves that. Nobody what. I love this world. What are you? But yeah, I think I think voldemort really is a he's a quality bill. Yeah, and he's and again, like, like now that you cleared up the motivation, like the motive the motive is. It's something we've seen in real life. Yeah, exactly, the very doing this. And and you literally have people spread out throughout the universe, the school individual wizards and stuff that hack, that are loyal to him because they agree with this kind of hierarchy mentile. Yeah, and the people, yeah, the people who on board with him make a lot of sense, because there it's a sense of yeah, Hey, we're better than them because we can cast freaking magic. Yeah, like, are you kidding me? Yeah, like, like they don't deserve to be, you know, walking like why? So I'm going to cheat a little bit, but there's a show that I like a lot. I don't think either of you guys have seen it, Avatar, the last airbender. I've I've been told to see it two episodes because my roommate is currently watching it now. So I'll come home and I'll...

...just watch a little bit. So No, I know a little bit about one of the things I really like about that show, without getting you spoiler on it, is it has this really great villains. The whole overarching plot of the first show is they're taking down the fire Lord, which is essentially Emperor Palpatine of the Avatar. You urteen about photograph. Pretty much he um you actually don't see him until the third season at all. He's just the force that they're going up against. But you also at the same time having smaller give villains, like there's this character Zuko, who's kind of like the main antagonist to begin with. There's and he's kind of the villain with a motivation that you understand. You have a sister that shows up later and she's kind of the just the crazy, power hungry, like psychopath kind of character, and then you jump into there's a sequel show legend of Kora, and then that's true. I think it's kind of defined by its villains and it's got basically each villain is kind of that character that you can get on board with their motivation up to a certain point and you kind of the protagonist learns a lesson throughout the course of the season and then has to use that to defeat the villain at the end. With am so really great villains there. I don't want to harp on it too much because you guys haven't heard too much about it, but somebody listening may have. Here's the extent of Avatar. The last en and Berk. Of that I know. It's the cunchiest and my cabbage is that's that's that's most of that's all I know. Yeah, yeah, so I feel like I really understand. And there's there's a character with the really great redemptive arc in there too. Yeah, Zuko, right. Yes, yeah, so I've seen enough memes about them. I'm less expended to know the characters. Definitely Little Sad, definitely worth a good worth with much there. It's funny. We should talk about this sometime. But there's some things that I know a lot about that I've never watched because I've I've done so much through predia and questions. We should watch that. We're gonna watch that. I've been one frozen. You got you have to explain why you're not gonna watch frozen. It's now fine movie. Yes, right now, I'm a villain to frozen, because there's okay, know that. So, Greg, he was twenty years old. He walked into is educational advisor in College. Is that what you're called? Your advisor? anyways, person that helps me the classes. Academic Advisor. Yeah, academic. There you go. This is a woman who is a bit older and guess you could call her Dorky. I don't know. She's very kind, very nice. Greats have been a long day. Right walking myself into her little cubicle and I turned the corner and he get into this place and there are little strings of like fishing line holding up snowflakes floating around her cubicle, with stickers everywhere. I have no idea what's going on. And this and I sit down, and I'm not even kidding you, this woman walks into this cubicle wearing like a Tutu and it's got, you know, icicles and things on it, and she starts singing a version of do you want to build a snowman called do you want to build a schedule? To me, that sounds amazing. I was not this was like I was like, listen, ma'am, I I'm in between workouts and classes, like I just got. You said, what do you like to build a schedule? Sounds like the best thing around. Just in the problem a bunch of other things that I tuned out. It was. It was like, and I'm not just talking about like she said, do you want to build a schedule? And gonna hold new song. Dude. This thing was like three and a half minutes maybefore and I was like, okay, honestly, it wasn't even funny for the first thirty seconds. Like, can you just either kill me or give me my classes? I Will Never Watch this movie. Greg I think you just need to let it go. Yeah, so clearly she was working through some stuff. You're going to sit down and watch frozen with home, you're gonna suck it up. We can leave it. Ask forward to that song if you want to, and that makes you feel back back to perfectly fine film. And its back to villainsins because so at well, talking about frozen. Elsa was apparently supposed to be the villain and when they originally pitched it and they're like this is a little too dark for a kids movie, which Bull Shit. Have you washed older kids movies? They're so dark there. But but have you watched up? That's dark for kids movie. Geez, wait, so is it my villain now, because I don't want to know about frozen's vill yeah, I've been better do anything. You brought up frozen. Wait, what? I didn't? I have no idea, but I did. You brought him, you said, knowing about things that you've never watched and I'm like, frozen. I know you Rut A. Frozen Elsa was originally supposed to be the villain, but they change that. What is your villain group? Okay, so either to be seen death note, yes, no, but that's another thing that I know a lot about. Fantastic villae then too, in my opinion, possibly the the best villain I've seen, just because so the whole show, it revolves around the villain, like he is the POV character. You are the villain essentially in the show, and it's almost like a breaking bad where you see where he starts and you kind of you follow them along. So, just to give you a rough premise, there's a ridiculous he's a genius. He's a kid in high school. He's a genius and he gets this book that allows him to kill people. He can write anybody's name, you can tell you how they died. There's all these rules they slowly starts to learn. If he doesn't write anything, they die in thirty seconds of a heart attack. But he has to guess, to know their face, be thinking of the face and write their full name. And so he starts. He starts adopting the sort of God complex where he thinks he's going to be the savior of the world. He...

...starts doing these things and and it's it becomes this mystery move. It the mystery show about this this secret like detective called L who obviously is called else so that he can't get his let his name, and it's about him also being a ridiculous genius trying to chase this Guy Kira, who's the main who's the main character of the show, but also the main villain, the genius, the Genius Kid, and so the two of them kind of dodging each other, constantly figuring each other out, the really interesting ways that l figures out what cure is doing, but also just the levels, the depths of evil that Curas is willing to go further and further, and he always shocks you, like the more and more, and the coolest thing I find about it. The reason why I say that, I said that statement that he might be the best written villain, is because he goes through all those different phases that we talked about. Right he starts off with somebody that you're like, okay, I can kind of be on board with this, with this idea. To begin with, he's only killing off criminal right. He's in like the worst of the worst people that are just taking up gail space, and he's like this is great for like they're just going to die of heart attacks, like this is amazing, this is a good thing. So you're kind of like, all right, this kid, he's a genius. He's kind of finding lack of purpose in school and in life and he's like this is really, really cool. If I remember correctly, like his first ill he actually saves some saves. Yeah, he saves a woman from getting from getting attacked. He writes the guy's name down really quickly and the guy get hit by car right in front of him. And so you're following along those lines, right, and then he clearly crosses over that line of like okay, now he's doing things to protect himself that aren't good at all, like he's killing innocent people to protect himself. And then he's he goes, he moves into the different stages of villainery where it's almost like a little bit of like an anarchist, because he starts just like he starts targeting people that are just you know, that are anti Kira, and those become the villains and it's like, okay, well, this is far from what you first started as. And then he moves into what were the other like, I mean he and the initially, you know, starts as as the good guy, moving to the bad guy. I guess if you want to, you want to add that one in there, but there are a couple more. Man, I can't think of it now. I was just thinking. By the end of it he is just this pure malevolent force. Yeah, but at the same time the character is kind of Hannibal Lecter, like you like? Yeah, you like because he's so genius, like he's coming up with these ideas and and again it's more about because the thing is, when he writes somebody's name, he can he can tell how they die, so we can kind of control them for a little while. So he can get really, really detailed and smart with like this person dies by running into this person, taking this person's car and below it, like, you know, just doing all this really detailed stuff, and it also being really sneaky with how he gets people's names, like hey, I don't think you're a cop, like show me your ID and sees the guys Id, you know. So now he has a way to kill him. And so like it like getting other people to write in the notebook for him, but there's all these deep like so he just becomes this kind of psycho by the end of it and he's kind of gone through all these different phases of Hillary by the end. Even his like is is kind of goofy. counterpart is like, Dude, you like this is where the end of this is where this path ends, like you want to do what I do, which is like like the demon that falls them around the owns. The book like is kind of the comic relief. And he's like, dude, if, like, if you want to do what I do, this is how it ends, like like you know, I won't spoil the ending, but yeah, it's it's an amazing show and he's an amazing just writes everyone it like he just it just a crazy character. Like he goes from anarchist to okay, I'm on your side to like it's all about you know yourself, and like he kind of goes through all these different phases of Hillary and it's really well written, super good show. Robert figgery. Nathaniel's writing a notebook right now, FYI, not a death now watching it frozen. That would be the way bring got. So there was a a Mon guy read that has really, really interesting villains. It was it was basically a crime detective thriller, but with a supernatural twist. So is so it's about this demon called neuro who is he's called the the king of bad eating, the prince of bad eating, and he eats everything. But what he really likes to eat his puzzles. Like, if you solve a puzzle, there's some sort of puzzle energy that gets released and heats that and that's like a really good meal for him. So he comes to the human world because he's bored of all the cuisine in hell and he latches onto this this high school girl as he's like, I'm a demon, I don't know how to function human society. You're going to do it for me. You're going to be the head of this a agency and I'm going to be your assistant. And so it goes around solving mysteries, solving crimes and as he solves the crimes, you know, whenever he solves them, the villain confesses and then he eats the mystery and they torches them with some crazy device. But it was really, really interesting because there's this character that is is a villain that they end up following through multiple murders, and this fillain is narrows, like I can't, I need you go to the girl calculators, like Yoco, I need your help, like I can't solve this one on my own because I don't understand human motive. You have to think like this person, because you understand human motives, and so you need to think like this person and tell me where they're going to be. And so she does it and it turns out this person was like a clone that was...

...experimented on. It got really weird towards the end and ended up being there was some guy named six who was like some higher evolution of humanity, almost like sending people. It got really it was really, really good, though, but but that one had some all the villains. All the villains in within the small crimes were really interesting because they're all they all seem. It didn't looks really good, like I got the Christy thing where I was like, Oh, you know, it could be this person, could be this person, and then it turned out this person. You're like, what is their motive? And they explain their motive and they're always like crazy, insane, like, Oh my God, how did you last this long without murdering? Yeah, I think when you get into anime like it's just like a depth of like really, yeah, this is our villains. Obviously the greatest villain of all time is captain getting you back the ball? Oh yeah, no, no, there's just no doubt about that. I can kill you while posing dramatically. Yeah, it's just great, and also take your body. The Guinea forces great. Yeah, there's a say here, like they were. Explain why they're just over the top and and animated, but look, whatever. Yeah, I think it's because they were drawn over the top and they're one piece. Also has one piece in bleach nartoe. To lesser extent, Narto villains were like some of them were. So I didn't understand their motivations like at all. And what in Narutoe, like a Kotsky, they have this whole clan. I didn't understand what their end goal was, but I was, you know, I was interested in that. The characters will have interesting interplay, you know, not to chase it Saska, but I really didn't understand what they were trying to do. And it ends up with they all dragon ball z really hard, where it's like this guy can destroy the earth by blinking at it. This can you used are the universe by farting. This guy can destroy every universe by sneezing. Right. So this gets bigger and bigger. Yes, speaking, bigger bigger, but it ends up with like the God of creation or the you know, the thing that the person that created everything in is somehow evil. I didn't understand. He went off the rails for me. But bleach is a really, really good one. Where so bleach is like it's all about the afterlife, right, and there are these grim reapers called Chinning a gammy that are tasked with when something gets into the human world, they got to go take it out. They're like they're in charge of the of the afterlife. Is the same name as okay, yeah, that's that's a comment. It's the Japanese word for grim reaper. Yeah, so it it means God of death. Each ago becomes one and he goes any meets and there's like a council of Thirteen Jinagami. They kind of run the underworld and there's some sort of king and it got really weird. But there's one guy called Eisen and he's the villain and you know he's the villain, but he's like trying to he sees soul society, which is the after life, as corrupt and he's trying to fix it and he's doing it by doing all these villains things. So so he reveals his motivations, like his motivation. They come clear because again, you know he's the villain, but nobody else does do. You see him working in the background and doing his motivations things. And it turns out everyone has a sword that has like two abilities, and you know there's like one where it stays like a sword to they get a special ability and then one word transforms and his ability is if he touches someone with it, he can manipulate their memories. He's like behind the scenes trying to maneuver all of Soul Society to take down what he sees as a corrupt, loaded society. Think he's trying to get into the kings because there's like a soul king that nobody gets to go into. He's like, the soul king ain't done shit for two thousand years, I'm taking him down. So that was a really that was a really, really good one. Too, and and of course the hero is like, I don't care, I'm a whoop your ass. It is funny a lot of times when you have a nuanced villain and the heroes just like, well, yeah, but you're the bad guy, so I'm justified here. That kind of in Black Panther a little bit, although although you know, to Chala does acknowledge. Okay, yeah, you know, you have a lot of good points. We're going to address those after I kill you. And I think that's part of what makes it so hard to say what makes a good villain. You have, you know, just the insurmountable foe, like, you know, the emperor, you know, just evil for evil sake kind of, or at least that's how he seems in the original trilogy. Right, right. And then you've got anarchist, the crazy person, the joker, like basically most horror movie and slasher movie characters. All that kind of stuff really compelling, really interesting to watch get like the foil plaits a minute's sorry, then I remember was gone, that you were going to the different the carry different styles of Valency at they need the joker one. I do not remember. The last one on the list now Dang it, I screwed out the one that you see grow and change and and yeah, I honestly find villains being redeemed more compelling than heroes turning to villain. Well, yeah, obviously, I mean said a happier moment. Ya, you never like, Yay, he's evil. No, no, but I generally find it to be those arcs tend to be more sensicle than the the the heroes turn will because I hear's turned to villains almost always turn on a couple of plot devices that you're like, that seems like it was easy to avoid. Yeah, well, like we're always is going to do that...

...because we're not evil super villain. I know, I know, I know, I know. So when we watch we're always going to sympathize. It's never going to make rational sense that there are but like in order, like we don't have. This is why we don't mean. Okay, you have some super villains in real life, but like essentially you don't have evil, like people to that level of evil that are like my plan is to destroy the world and it's like just really exists. He so the motives are going to be kind of bizarre. Yeah, yeah, and I get that and and so let's go. Let's go to talk about Batman. Last week, I guess your freeze, Mr Freeze, is like a really sympathetic villain, because you're like, all he wants to do, it will kicks, not the Arnold Schwarzenegger version. All he wants to do. Di'me on this. They all you so, but all he wants to do. He's prime motivation is to save his wife. So so bad. No, it's Batman. I'm sorry, okay, that, but so he's he like has a sympathetic motivation where you're like, okay, yeah, he just again we talked about why does he not just ask Batman for help, which I know he did in one of them, when, yeah, I'm sure in one of the iterations that they solve this problem. But you know, he turns to crime to fund his research to try to save his wife, or nowadays, honestly, kickstarter. Come on doctor, to get in the twenty. Girl, I'm a frozen on my wife. Jeeez, give me money to save my wife trying to this video will help many. My Wife's music. He's ice bucket challenge. I hold it all one. You are whims. You'll freaking choir boy. Compared to me, you could start a snow cone business. He could literally want to. He could be vine famous, like, I mean, he could do anything that I scour. I would love to see a series where super villains, like in the twenty one century there just like let's yeah, I'm just like a youtube star. Now, seriously, that's always when I fantasize about having superpowers. I'm always like, that's what I do to make money and I'm super on the side. That's this one interesting thing, and I do think we should say this first its own episode of you know, superheroes and super villains are always kind of they are to fight each other, whereas you're like, okay, Flash, you're super speedy, work for Amazon man, Amazon, extra prime, ten second delivery, all the speedster's just like making bank, like come on, but it never works out. Didn't you see spider man try to deliver pizzas and that movie? Okay, yeah, but he's like the most inefficient Messe. What about the yeah, the villain, they just that's literal trash. Can Phasma so sad or does not talk about her? No, let's not. I'm trying to think of other villains, their villains that are different from the ones we've described and trying to think of like a a variety of like, I feel like most vilains so fit into that. Are you guys seeing the movie The Rock? It's got Sean Conner. Yeah, that was an interesting movie. Right. So, like it had nothing to do with dwayne Johnson. You know, Casey. It's called the Rock because it has to do with Alcatraz. US like the like they call it the rockets. It's the prison that is an island, as a small little island. So it's about how these exmilitary guys, this one specific General Guy, is he stole these nukes and or these like chemical warfare bombs and any hiding on Alcatraz and he's threatening people, I think, because in the motive is that they left people, they left dead people behind in this war that he was in, and he's like we need to honor those people, like like they deserve to be honored, like like we just left like their they're rotting bodies there, and that this is wrong. Like I'm holding essentially pulling like New York ransom because he's gonna blow it up or something like. Hoping that he get that, and I mean and we find out like ultimately, like, like he's willing to die for this right, like he just wants to do that. He knows he'll be a villain and he'll be caught and captured and killed it and he's like it's okay, like, like, like, and you find out later. I mean, I'm heads up. Is a spoilers to turn it off. I've watched it, that he never planned to do it. He was bluffing the whole time. And so when they call his bluff and they don't, they don't negotiate with a terrorist, he says, they call our bluff, okay, we have to stand down, and then one of his men ends up killing him and taking over, and so it's I thought that was interesting as a viewer, just because I thought, okay, his plan made sense, like that was a character aid. Actually kind of would have an interesting a like and it was. It was interesting the fact that they had the main villain kind of say, okay, this is it. They called my bluff. I'm not planning on killing thousands of people for this. My motive was good. I bluffed like I was going to be this horrible guy, was willing to get cap should go to jail for it. If, if they met my demands and honored all these people that, you know, they didn't go and find their bodies and bury them like they should have, and which was a bad thing. Like they pulled out of this, you know, whatever war he's describing. But then you have the other character who has probably wasn't thinking about it that way and it was like, okay, I'm already neck deep. I have to go through this, like we have to pull the trigger here, like otherwise, what's the point? Like my life's over. anyways. They captured me. My Life's over. I might as well grab a bunk while I'm here, right and so, like I find that to be, like to be pretty interesting, just because, like the secondary...

...character, who you think it's an extreme thing, and I'm gonna go back to the star wars thing. It's like, once you're already in like you kind of give up hope and like you can relate to, like I could relate to both of those guys. The one guy who had the plan, he was thinking about just himself, all of his evil men that he that he kind of recruited to do this. He obviously didn't tell them that they were bluffing. I guess and so for them they had plans past this. They're like, okay, no life exists beyond this. We're going to get a helicopter get out here. M's like they would have never done that. Like this was mainly to get our people honored. And then, you know, I was always going to be going to jail or go going to die, and these other guys had other plans, like oh my gosh, well, now I'm already here. I have to be this evil villain, and that's where I kind of connect with Anakin there, because it's like and in, like again, that's the character he had to become, and not to get back to this point, but like like he crossed that line. He crossed the line. That's it. He's there, like he's a guy got to go all the way with us. We talked about one of the greatest villains of all time, megamind. I've only watched that movie once. Really it's so because I can't I can't remember it, don't at all. It's really really good. I think it was so it came out the same time as despicable me and so got overshadowed. I actually it was better, better than I and I like spicable me, although if you remove men and from despicable me, I think will be a better movie. I really liked megaminded it, but it's really interesting. Right, he's the villain and his whole goal is to kill Mr metropolis, right, and then he quote kills I'm spoiling this movie, So spoiler for kids movie that came out ten years ago. He kills Mr Metropolis, and so he takes over the city. Metro man, yeah, Metro man, Metro Man. He takes over the city and and he's like, I am I so bored? Why am I so why is this? Why is everything so empty? Oh, because I've achieved my goal, but my hope, but what I actually enjoyed doing was fighting metro man. So ends up trying to make a new metro man, a new superhero, based on you know, he's like Howe these these someone who's like this and like this and like this, and find someone and totally misreads him and gives him superpowers and he ends up becoming a super villain because he's like, I have all these powers, I should get what I want. Well, it was Jonah Hill. Yeah, yeah, there's Jonah Hill, and it kind of looks like Jonah Hill too. But it turns out metro man actually just got sick of being a superhero and so he retired, and it's like writing terrible songs. You See, like that's funny, though. Take on, it's bad villain right that are written, because again you have to ask yourself the question like hey, is this person just being a villain so that I can watch there be a villain exactly he actually got control, what would he do? You're right, so right. A really, really great comic kind of goes along with similar lines. Absolutely hated the premise when it came out. Absolutely hated it. But it was called the superior spider man and basically what it is up going up to issue seven hundred of spider man. Doc Cock is dying. He's in like he's got I can't remember exactly what it is, but basically super he's been he's been punched in the head by superheroes way too many times and he's just a normal guy with metal arms. It's kind of the gist of it. He's dying and he swamps brains with spider man and of amazing spider man seven hundred, like this landmark issue is he succeeds. Spider man dies in his body and he's just like, okay, I'm spider man now, and they do a series spider man. There's like thirty two issues where he is posing as Peter Parker, spider man, and it's basically okay, I killed the hero, now what do I do? And the one kind of interesting moment is right before spider man dies, they're kind of he was trying to swap back. They're kind of slightly connected mentally in his life flashes before his eyes and Doc ock is basically Oh, I understand you as a character. You could have killed me so many times. You know what, I'm going to honor you. I'm going to be a better version of you. And it's just the superior spy is going to be the superior spider man. So it's awesome. It's like you take a super villain character, you kind of throw him into he's having to be a hero just to kind of get by and watch his progression and it's a really great series. Either die villain or live long enough to see this up, to become the hero. Yep, yeah, yeah, yeah, all this is pretty much but I'm civilized. Yeah, ends up being really compelling, highly recommended. So there was an interesting when. I think I've talked about this because we talked about injustice. There's a really good comment called irredeemable and there's a there's a companion to that called uncorruptible. The basically it's a world of superheroes and the the most powerful Superhero, who's I can't remember any of these characters names. Don't don't get mad at me. Basically the Superman stand in. It opens with him. He goes into a house and there's a kid there and he's like wow, it's superman whatever, and his mom comes in his like Oh shit, and like tries to hide him away and then he get they both get vaporized by plasma blast from his eyes. Right. That's like the opening. Is He's killing a kid in his mom and like that was shocking. And then it's it opens with you know, he's just like trashing the world and all the other superheroes like we can't stop him. He's more powerful than all of us and literally he's like sinking an eye, like an island nation. He's like pushing, he's like pushing into the sea. One of the guys like portals in and like quick, come with me, and the dude, Superman guy shows up and it's like you...

...can take ten people, and so he did. So the other heroes like okay, you, you go. I sorry, I can't do anymore. And because he's like I can't fight this guy, so you just take ten people and then everyone else dies. And so it kind of goes with how the superheroes band together and and how they band together and managed to get him into jail in the Sun. There's apparently like a an alien jail in the heart of the sun, which, of course, he staps from and and you kind of goes through all of his and any it slowly reveals, okay, how did he become? He was the world's greatest superhero. Why did he become a villain? What happened to make him become like this? And the ending, I don't want to spoil it, is you should go read it. It's actually really really interesting, kind of Cheesy, but really really interesting, and really interesting idea about how how this particular character came into existence, how he got his powers and why he turned evil. And you know, you know it arguing about destiny versus choice. There's there's there's some of that in there as well. But it's really interesting because it because you start with him being like just the cartoonishly evil he just murdering everybody, and then it goes and says, okay, here's why he started doing this. Essentially something happened that would have compromised him, and so he just snaps, like it shows the moment where he just snaps and loses it and it's like, you know what, if I can kill this guy, I can do whatever I want and I'm just going to wreck everything to kind of cover up this thing that he was so ashamed of. He's like it's better for me to just start killing everybody that nobody finds out about this incident. It was really interesting. kind of a superhero turned sour, but a but like from reverse. That's interesting. Yeah, so that that was a really that I thought that would filing was really interesting. I think other movie villains, arguably the bugs and starship group personally. Until how much research teeted? Yes, yes, this is a very casual episode. The pretty it's super cash, super cash. Artis fowl. I'm going to come talk about talk about artmispellgains. Arms fell starts with arms fell as the villain. So he's the main character, but he's absolutely the villa, which is one of the reasons the movie just fabled to launch. Billion reasons. We'll talk about it. I'm gonna you need to watch the ARTISTA movie on Disney plus and I can loan you the books. It really short even you can get through. And Greg. Okay, yeah, we got her too. Didn't realize we could. Yes, okay, they're there eight. There're eight of them. You only need to read the first three to, for to put the movies badness in context. But I would hope after what read the first do you want to read the next, because in my opinion the second book is the best, then the fourth and then I'm not going to rank the rest of them, but but it you really see the first book he's just straight up a villain and even like the one good thing he does they explain is like well, he did that to surface own needs. And so the first book, from the beginning to end, he's just a villain. And in the second book he's trying to find his dad and ends up running into the fairies because something because some stuff goes down with the fairies and they're like who's the only person we know who's ever taken advantage of us. It's arms foul. He's the bad guy. We got to go get him. And then you see him, over the course of many, many books, start to start to change from being expert in totally self indulgent being like okay, you know, I'm still this super genius. I still kind of want to be a criminal, but maybe I can do it in a way that will benefit humanity. So it. He has a really interesting arc all the way through. Similar recommendation. Comic bookwise low key is really fascinating character you want to check out. Kind of really good story with him. It's called journey into mystery, or basically, lucky dies in a major event comes back as kind of a reborn version of himself. Everybody still expects him to be the trickster he still kind of is, but he's trying to do it in a way that's helpful to the world. But it's like a little kid version of lucky and really great story written by Karen Gillan. Fantastic. If I had to give a recommendation. If you guys ever seeing American psycho? NOPE, if not, really was a book. First I'm that right. I'm surprised you guys haven't seen it. Actually, I'm familiar with Islam, with Christian Bale, like murders a bunch of prostitute. Yeah, and it's definitely, definitely pretty graphic movie, for sure. Yeah, it's that's the one. But it's really it's interesting because he's it's like a self narrative, like like he you can hear his thoughts, like he's talking to himself the whole time and he's trying to figure out why he's like this. He's just like man like and and he just super blunt and honest, like with his thoughts, where he's just like it's so, it's so it's kind of humorous. There's also a really interesting twist perspective to have on the movie that makes it kind of mind blowing. It's worth a watch, even though it's kind of like like, yeah, it's definitely pretty graphic, like, yeah, murdering prostitutes and stuff. The acting job by him is great. Him as a villain is interesting just because there's almost two ways to see him either at well both of them, as a psycho, as the Americans like little bit psychic. Mom. It's a it's actually really interesting movie. I'd recommend watching it. He's a really interesting villain. If you do watch it, then come and ask me, Hey, what's this alternative perspective, because a blow your mind. Well, WANT TO TALK ABOUT VILLAINS FOR THE SAKE OF VILLAINS? I think the horror movie genre...

...has kind of has a lockdown on that. So like Michael Myers and Freddie and Shaker and I like, well, they're just there too for to provide interesting kills. Yeah, one of the thing I was thinking about in it's just kind of it's similar, but it's more in the sci fi genre. You have like robotic villains that are yeah, you're like you've got the Borg and Star Trek. What the DALEKS? The cyber from Dr Why? The Matrix? AL? Yeah, just not really necessarily malevolent forces. I guess the DALEKS got. Yeah, they want to. Have you ever read the first story or or watch it? I have no mouth and I'm a screen. I have not I have no mouth and I must scream or in her it was a it's a sci Fi short story. I don't remember who wrote it, Litt Ken, Dick, Ra ass mob or something like that, but basically it's like this computer gained sentience, took over the entire world, killed every human except for five and spend its days torturing these five humans because in gaining sentience, it's somehow gained a loathing for humans. And it explains. It's like I have ten trillion miles of circuitry, you know, in my core. If the word hate was written on every single nanometer of every single circuit, wouldn't be in it wouldn't be a trillionth of the hate I feel for humanity. It's it's kind of interesting. It's pretty dark and pretty bleak, but it's pretty interesting. Like, Hey, this computer game centers and it freaking hates you. It's US so much I'll computer's against it. Yes, Hey, this and and. The reason it's called I have no mouth and I'm a scream is because it turns the final guy into like a gelatinous Blob, so he has no mouth of any wants to scream like that guy in the xmen. Yeah, yeah, the Matrix. Yeah, well, if we're gonna talk about robotic villains, the Matrix is excellent. But yes, it really like, and I've mentioned this before, why they matrix is such an interesting movie to me. Well, such an interesting three movies, and I know you don't like the second too. I find the same. I'm willing to go back and rewatch them. I find them to be interesting. Watch them with this, with this in mind. Okay, bring the idea in mind. Most crazy, like alternate world movies where things are just crazy, like the movie, like movies don't address the fact that life is crazy enough, like like in my opinion, to where you're like, okay, there are mutants now and everybody's just kind of figuring out how to deal with that. Oh, there is this now, like now they're aliens. Now there's this in the Matrix. The primary function of the entire movie is characters dealing with the fact that they're in the Matrix. They're like, shoot, what does this mean for purpose? What does this mean for destiny? What does this do? I have free will? Do I have choice? All of the second movie is about whether free will exists, like and so like. They're tussling with like the real human issues. That's why I find them so interesting. Um, however, like the machine side at as a villain is really interesting because there is a conversation that neo has with one of the with one of the survivors and they're talking about what is control and they're having this dialog on what does it mean to be in control, like, look, we control all these machines and they're they're they're cleaning our water, they're cleaning our air, and this is us. They're in their hideaway, this is this is ion. And he's like yeah, but we have control over them because we can turn them off, and he goes, really it will we turn them off, we die, and he goes, so controlled any sick? He's kind of looking around. He's like, so control doesn't necessarily mean like like we like, we rely on then they rely on us and that becomes this theme to wear. At the end that ends up having to happen because they like the main computer system has a huge virus, which is agent Smith, and he's like, I can't fix it. I have control. I could kill human meals. I can have you tried turning it off and on again. I could kill humans right now because of destroyed Zion and I'm about to finish. I could do it, but if I killed them then I die. So I'm kind of relying on them, even though at this current stage I have control and power over them. They in the way I have control and power over me because I need their help. And so it's this back and forth in the machines trying to deal with that. But it's also a second AI. So it's not really a machine. It's essentially a human. I mean it's somebody that has its own intelligence and its own thoughts. It holds promises. So it also has morals. Question Mark at the end like a line where they're like are you going to hold your promise? He's like what? Am I human anyway? That's like, so knows. Is that is that? I know. Yeah, so that is that. Of course, now is more question. We're boned. But that's a great robotic villain. And Smith is a great virus villain. Yeah, you know, yeah, it's really cool. Yeah, and and and Smith like acts just like a virus. He's like I just want to replicate and and I want everything to come me. And he's constantly talking about what, like why he's doing that, and like the fact that now he has purpose. Is Purpose is just to anny's acting like and and he's crazy. He's like he he mentions that he's different from all the other agents beforehand. Yeah, in First Matrix, before all the crazy stuff happens right like because his program is it's the smell. Yeah, I feel like I've somehow been infected by it, the great see, and I'm down to watch. I think they're fun spectacle. I just think there's garbage's the right saying? The first, the second too. Yeah, well, I guess like that's you got to Rewatch it before the fourth one comes on anyway. Oh, for sure. But yeah, that's why I said. Yes, there is a lot of spectacle in two and three where you're like, okay, this is just ridiculous. But if you go in there holding to those things that I told you look for, you'll be like there is some more depth to this movie than I thought. I suppose. I just think. I feel like...

...it's sound, weird, shallow depth's a movie that tries to be way more philosophical than it has any legs stand on. Really, you think so? I think it has some cool deals with some cool philosophical questions. Yeah, okay, we got to rewatch. It has been very, very long. I last time I watch my I was in high school. So said about rewatching the matrix sequels and then debating about Oh yeah, we're definitely gon do that, like whenever makes just for Kims that were. Can Watch all of them and we're going to talk about them, for sure. Yeah, sure, yeah, so I'm racking my brains trying to think of villains. The cylons a Battlestar galact I was I was actually going to go there. I was gonna ask about battle story, because they're they're really it's really interesting because you have like the two types of cylons, right you have the spoilers, you have the robot silence, and then you have the human cylons, which, you know, how silent are they? If they look identical to humans and act like humans and are essentially the same Intel and level as humans? It's like, yeah, they're they're they're hot, they're humans, but they're also cylons and they can reproduce, because we have a half human have cylon baby. So so at that point, are you still a cylon or you just a human with it, with this fancy name, thinking a really interesting job where it was like there's this battle that's been going on for forever the CYLON's way. Okay, well, how did it start again? That that was always fuzzy to me. Was it the cylons revolted or did they are there? Were they alien? I believe they were alien. I don't remember how it started. Yeah, so, especially because Battlestar galactical kind of starts to many as rests and has like vague flashbacks. But we know that cylons were already on earth and were involved in the fall of earth. Or Not Earth. It's not earth. They go to Earth on whatever planet they were on, I think. I think it was similar matrix like, you know, robot uprising whatever, which is something I've always wondered by the Star Wars Universe. Is like why do you need your translator droid to be sentience? Why do you need this? Why do you need these droids to have independent thought? Okay, maybe, if it's like a battle computer and you need to run simulations and calculate, okay, if he does this, what do you do? If he does this, what do you do? They do this, what do you do? You know, maybe, but if it's like I need you to translate for me, why does that robot need to be sentient? You need funny said characters that can so tolls. Exactly why? I mean, yeah, and like Oh, you have this droid that helps you in your ship. You know general will use droid. Why does it need to be sentient? Because the only place that leads is maybe madetrix. Maybe it's because, you know, that's the only other person on your ship. And it's really interesting because do because star wars was repeatedly, and stars repeatedly talks about droids not being better than Solo. Yeah, in episode two, I mean like he has a conversation went x in multiple things. Are Like droids are not people. Figured you know, the difference between knowledge and are wizt and apparently, and all the movies the millennium, Howking Falcon has been sentient. Oh my God, Oh my God, we're gonna tie so much and the bail of the force. So that movie, I don't think it was horrible. I just think it honestly, kind of like rise of skywalker, are a force awakens. I think it tried too hard, which is a weird thing that it's we're complained to have out a movie didn't miss on the areas that I was afraid it was going to. Like the actual character who played Han like he seemed like that. Seems like he seemed like Han. Solo kind of looked like. I'm well done. I thought that Lando was done pretty well. He's he's a little more flamboyant than he had to be, like just because, I mean it was a flamboyant character, but I was like, like, it doesn't like there were a couple things in line, but overall I thought Childish Gambino a good yeah, the problems with like the Kessel run and the Millennium Falcon, how he's got his name and his and his droid and how he met you, Bacca, and the fact that there's this other girl and and and darth all show and that the good guys were all little children. It's sense. Didn't you know that the thing that star wars fans have always wanted as an origin story for absolutely every aspect of con Solo, he's life, I mean wardrobe and falls. That's what fan fiction is for. In a right rise. We didn't see how he chose his hairstyle. Yeah, it's just you didnt see a picking out imperial hair grease. Starts Talking wookie. We've never said why would we have him start. Alieve that he can. Yeah, I always I always assume that was because they spend so much time together. But you just learned well, that that should be the ascension. Like Hey, I like I first had to understand it, but slowly I learned wookie, as we've been together for so long. That kind of speaks to the depth of their friendship. Not I met this guy and I could speak booky. It be like rocket and the next guardians movie. Just yeah, groot, yeah, I just high school lucky Dande Esta Fonyo. But yeah, villains, there are some, there's some, some good ones out there, and it's funny. You know, I'm kind of torn whether it's better to have a mysterious villain or one where you kind of know why they're doing what they're doing, because palpatine was a great villain in the Ot and he you know, you like where this guy come from a little. He's good, powerful, he's well. I think that worked because they established darth vader and then like and he answers to this guy whole snap and and then they try to do that with snog and it didn't work for snow because Tyler was like, who is this guy? He was throwing for stantrums. They're very scary. Hear Kylo men's...

...rips. He's got like a I'n pack. With the show before scamp or spacetime call went through. He's shirtless. Yeah, but I appreciate. I appreciate villains who who are somewhat sympathetic. We're like, okay, I can see why you did that, but maybe you shouldn't do it that way. I do think you know it. Too often it comes down to either here on the villain or just like well, we we know we came this far, we might as well fight to the death, or it comes to the okay, this happened in national treasure. To See national treasure to yeah, so the villain is the villains the whole time. Then right at the end he's like, okay, you guys, leave all I'll sacrifice myself, like I'm sorry what your entire character has been. I don't care about you guys. You're gonna do what I tell you. I'm going to kill you. Look this kind and the end he's like, okay, you know what, you're actually the main character. So I know I'm a secondary so you know, I'm just letting you know. And they had to live for national treasure. Three. Is that happening? I have no idea. I don't think it. I've heard of they couldn't think of another treasure since it came out. Like, what do we got? Okay, we got you. Get there. Gonna have to the Declaration of independence. Yeah, Prime Minister of Micronesia. Okay, on that. Take a seat, chancellor. All right. Well, so you let us know what villains you thought were the most compelling or the least comp or the least compelling? Yeah, who? Okay, we do next to talk about? Who Do you think was? We're bad villains. I mean, I love the marvel movies, but most of their villains, yeah, are just somebody who got their suit or their power for a little while. It's a dark reflection of the hero. That's evil. Yeah, every bad guy. I mean, do we want to go back to the Star Wars like I started with? I led with that. As far as I bet create a bad villain. Look at the star wars movies like that. There was no villain, there's no fear any every time they showed up anywhere, they got their asses handed to them. If it's never scariness, until episode nine, where you had Ninezero Star destroyers that could blow up planets and they also died in a spot second. And yes, and you power team was like we're just gonna let them hover where they could get knocked up? I don't understand. Why would you not put them in space is at least. There's just far too much to hate anyways, excluding the worst movie trilogy ever created. I think this is thinking of that. Really, you watch twilights, okay, that wasn't trology. There wasn't a trilogy one and enjoyed it more than the stars. When he's fool, dude, it's because I have less value of like I didn't care that they just all right, was characters, but I think of a villain that really just didn't work. I guess if I'm going to go back to bleach after the Eisen Arc right each ago, like Hugo and eyes and face off, you should lose his powers and then you're like, okay, well, that's the end of the the end right and bleach. The Guy who wrote bleachers like, Oh shit, I need more money, and like another hundred and two hundred chapters with this villain who came out of nowhere. Who is he's related to one of the characters were familiar with, but he literally comes out of nowhere and he is more powerful than everyone and beats everyone to death. It's an anime. Yeah, so what you're saying? Yeah, well, but it's like you start, you ended on a really good arc and then you just gonna be like who is this guy? And he literally starts calling himself yeah, away, and I'm like Bra back off, back off. Sorry, he calls himself. You walk like really, Um, I don't know. I feel like you can find a lot of badly written villains in TV shows because they have to pump out so many yeah, like like in Dragon Ball Z, there are plenty that are just like this is a villain to the sake of being a villain, like he's just he's not even posing. What is this knocking you force? Like I mean like you can argue that like Broi, which are like the you know, everybody loves those movies because like they're fun, but in reality probably is just a essentially like a baby throwing a tempertatially doesn't understand like it's powers too great. So they have to try is easy, super sameal yeah, and they're just trying to fight him and stop him. It's really fun to watch because he's overpowered and like all these superheroes have to stop him, but at the same time there's nothing compelling about him. He only gets better every time he comes back. Yeah, and he also just like reboot him like a million times, and so, like he's not a compelling well written villain at all. But TV shows do that all the time. I wonder there's a movie that stands on a usure really poor villain? Not Trying to think of one, I can't. I mean amazing spider man too. I pointed that out. Yeah, like, yeah, Bill and just like he was just a nice and spider man three. It's spider man three. There's a lot. I mean and and x men three kind of right there. Yeah, and AH, the fantastic four reboot. How do you do that to Dr Doom? Are you do my boy dirty? I was thinking about Dr Doom and it's nobody. Part of the problem is nobody understands who that characters used to be. Yeah, and not even the writers understand. Like. Is He a villain? Is He an Antihero? Is He sympathetic? Is He just pure evil? It varies from issue to you. Within the same run, Dr Doom should basically be at his best a combination of Tony Stark, doctor strange and read Richards and...

...all of their egos. Yeah, that's essentially what he's supposed to be. And then he's like but he's also crazy. That's why. I mean, yes, you could argue that Lex Luthor, like Lucor and bbbbs as like, is a terrible so so doesn't line up with this character on Lex Luthor in Justice League. The the Justice League show Lex Luthor is is, you know, constantly. He he just hate superman. So everything he's doing is trying to take down Superman, right, and he gets really close. But then his motivation changes when he meets BRAINIAC and it's really interesting because he liked merges with BRAINIAC and he comes this hyper intelligence and then loses that and so it's motivation shifts to I just want to get bringing it back. So their whole reason he joins the League of villains wasn't the injustice they called him. Just think it was a leader. If it was, I think they did the injustice league and then they did secret society, Good Society, I think, but I don't know that they were did legion, whichever one they were calling themselves right, because it's gorilla group. It's basically really Rod Brill grod starts it and get gets loose on board. Ratty smart and Luther is like hallucinating BRAINIAC and it's whole motivation is I need to get back to that level of intelligence. So Luther, they did an interesting job of shifting his motivation while keeping him an interesting villain. And one of the things that's really interesting about Luth or is even the end of the Justice League show, when that doesn't work out for him, he's like okay, and a lot of the other villains are like we got a fight on the side of the heroes because we can't profit if the world's destroying. Right. Which one last comic recommendation for great for a villains episode. It's a run. It's a story called forever evil. It goes out of a terrible event called Trinity War, but basically the end of that is all of the there's three justice leagues in the comics of the time. All of them disappear. Evil version of the Justice League Crime Syndicate shows up on earth, takes over and it's villains, LEX LUTHOR LEADING A group of villains and Batman, because those comics against the the just, because Batman, Batman is so has so much will power that when they tried to write him out. He appeared in the writers booth and slapped him and then reappeared in the comic pretty much, and it's a but it's incredibly interesting to watch luth or and he recruits like Sinestro, captain cold some of the other kind of villains with interesting motivations, gopings. It's it's really funny. It's thinking about Comic Book Villain is. Comic books have for such an interesting issues because you have to have you know the reason, like, Oh, why is there no death penalty for people who have committed genocide? Right that the hey disappear. You just not think about that and I supposed to think about these things because it's like, well, it's because they need to come back next issue. How like the reason we knew, Oh, when Thano snapped all those guys out, we know who's coming back because they have movie deals. It's so it's a little bit of real world kind of messing with your lore where it's like okay, and and it did. They do explore this a little bit sometimes, but I don't feel like they explored enough, because they need this. They need these recurring villains where it's like they get their ass whooped every single week for ten years and they're not just like I'm a genius toy maker. I could make it killing in an actual toy industry. Like really, do you not know how much money businesses make? I feel like it smells like we have to rob banks. You'RE gonna understand how commerce works. You have incredible talents and you can't figure out anything else to do with them. You guys just so goodself. Just be a spectacle. I so serious, blases, Dude. I just really want that's what I really want. I really want like a comic spinoff where all the the normal super maybe not the superpowered ones, but even them, where they're just like, you know what, I can make more money and get beat the Shite out of me less if I just took a day job, and they just like reintegrate into society than just like Kevin Colt, will you while I run a ski resort. You're round. That's awesome. I need a business, and then that's your friend. Then all the superheroes like freak out and like what do we do? We we've lost their motivation. That would be really interesting. Round the supermanls, like you know what we're done, marvel DC. We have an else world story for you. There you go, there you go, get it for free. They go its. Hey, what if's coming out? It's called now. Yeah, I've yeah, yes, that's all so good. I love this. I love this all right. So that's our pitch for supervillains, or we hope you make it some day, because you make it some day. So, yeah, if you want to get in contact with us, we'd love to hear from you. Let us know your favorite villain, your least favorite villain, what sort of villain motivations do you find appealing? On appealing, stupid, interesting? Blah Blah, Blahlah, blah, Bah Blah. Right. Do you think we were wrong about anything? Let us know. If you have an opinion, let us know. Let us entitle to it, even if it's wrong. Yeah, last J anyways. Yeah, so you can. You can contact us. You can send us an email. Dearly debated at gmailcom or you can tweet us. Tweet at us, twit us, Twat us. No, no, weeet at us. Careful. Send us a tweet. There you go. Send us a twitter. Swipe right on twitter, and I don't know where I'm going. This dearly debate at dearly debated at dearly debated. There is. You can find me at Holy Golm on twitter and...

...that's it. You can find me on facebook at chapter one films. Also, you can email me Greg at chapter one films Dot Biz. You can find me on social media at comic exile or at Comic exilecom and, of course, Greg and our youtube channel. Could you chemist? WHOOHOO. Yeah, we're up to forty one subscribers at time of writing. Yeah, it's pretty good. It's pretty good. We're we have a hundred. Yes, we talk about yeah, we hit a hundred. We can monetize it. Not to say that we need the money, but you know, yeah, we need the money in ingredients cost. Food ingredients cost. Food ingredients cost money. You can find that the kitchen chemist on Youtube, and we're at real kitch and no, at Kitchen Kem why, on twitter, and kitchen chem chemist, why, ti on instagram. So until next time, what's a good villain saying? Well, next time I'll be back. No, that's that's a good guy. I mean, when he first says it, he's not. I'll be back with my wimble. She did. That's a good guy as well. What if is there like a catchy villain catchphrase. I'll be back, is a villain. He's not the but he turns into the good guy. No, not in that movie. He's the villain the whole movie. The first time you hear that line, the authentic line is I'll be back and then he kills everybody. Is a villain line. Okay, okay, I'll be back. There perfect for UN I'll be back. Wanna be ev I want to spit tanks. I'M gonna BE BOO and cheat at Jacks. I wanna be weaking. I wanna tells. I wanna be mean and from my pies. I wanted to wake up in the morning with that dark brown taste. I wanna see and deserve asion in my face. Gonna be I wanna be mad, but more than that, I wanna be bad.

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