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Dearly Debated
Dearly Debated

Episode 3 · 2 years ago

Episode 3 - God of Hammers

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

We're tackling the MCU (or at least a good chunk of it). Nathanael is wearing mother's drapery, Greg is a jet engine, and moderator Jason whispers in your ear - Longing, rusted, seventeen, daybreak, furnace, nine, benign, homecoming, one, freight car!

Listen, my people are in great danger and you and I we have to fight this really powerful being wolves who happens to be my sister. Okay, that is so wrong on so many I don't want to fight your sister. that. That's how that's a family issues. The evil being. I don't care how what she is. I'm not fighting anymore beings. I'm sick of it. I just told you. If I turn into the hulk, I am never going to come back again, and you don't care. No, no, no, I'm putting together the team. Oka's the fire. Wait, you're just using me to get to the hulk. Gross, what? No, you don't care about me. You're not my friend. No, I don't even like the whole please look like Gross, a smash mess. I prefer you. Thanks, but if I'm being honest, when it comes to find even beings, he's very powerful and useful. That banner is powerful and useful too, is he though? All right, welcome to the next episode of the dearly debated. I am your host, Greg and starboars friends. Alongside on your left, it's Nathaniel Levinson, all right, and also here is Jason. I've read way too many comics Daniel. That's this thing, right, selestering the same one over and over again, then. So let's start off with this week in history. Maybe so this is for the week of wells. Thursday, June, the fourth today. So this week in history, in nineteen forty two, the battle of Midway begins, a decisive victory for the US. Less notable were the battles of the starting line, where US forces lost to Germany in the Monaco Grand Prix after hit their put sugar in the American drivers gas tanks, and the final countdown skirmish where US troops resolutely outbreak danced the SS. In nineteen thirty four, the US touspil begins. Many said it was the worst soup ever. One thousand nine hundred and eighty four, bruce springsteon releases, born in the USA, a best selling album. Less popular. Popular were his follow up albums. Raised in Canada, went to school in Prussia, got married and settled down in Taiwan and died in Liechtenstein. And that's what happened this week in history. Look, maybe it's a real place. It doesn't sound replace no, no, but it's really well, it's it's one of those countries that has three people and also in a night scale, and so you just kind of assumed like it was just like a birch from imagination place. Okay, well, if you hadn't guessed by our middle names for this episode, and I guess the Dales wasn't really a middle name, here's no thank you, either middle name or a we're going to talk about the NC today and we left an entire episode for it. Will probably need more because, I mean it's the NCU something like twenty two movies now. But thank God we have our mediator Jason here because and this could get out of hand. And so just to clarify, we're talking about the movie universe. I don't think we'll talk about agents of shield. Jason might bring in Comic Book More. It's a little bit like the encyclic, yes or set. So what happened to him later? So I'm mostly familiar with marvel from visual media, not from comic books, I guess. Okay, I'm I'm from movies and TV shows. Is what I'm familiar with, because my dad. You know what, I'm going to save that till we get to that. So okay, why don't you go ahead and start us off of the first topic, thinking thing. Yeah, let's go first topic. All right. So first off I go on our mcu discussion is just real simple. What is your favorite movie in the MC they movie? The answer you Um, I'd have to say, HMM, you have one off. I think I do, and it's not going to be like it's not the best one, for sure, like they're big problems with it. I think civil war is my favorite just to go back and Rewatch, just because I really my favorite part of the mcu period are the characters interacting with each other and like like, for instance, the scene in age of ultron where they're all sitting there after the party talking about Thor's Hammer. Like I know it's just like it's a corny scene or whatever, but it seems like that in a movie. I could go back and rewatch it it because it's just, you know, it's just you've seen all these characters in different movies and you're so curious as to how they're going to react when they get in start, you know, interacting with each other and you finally get to see it. And I feel like in in civil war one you're introduced to a lot of new characters. I mean we know ain't man, but we have never really seen him interact with all the other ones, except for, you know, the one quick part with the Falcon. We haven't seen spider man yet. We haven't seen Black Panther yet. This is all before all those things. And also you've kind of taken out the heavy hitters like thor and hulk and yeah, visions they're be you arrives late, which is classic, you know, classic storytelling. So you're kind of just left with all like the minor fighters and then you get this awesome fight scene and you know the airport, you know. And just as somebody that thinks...

...of like what do I want to go back and watch, it's typically that one. Yeah, it's probably it's my favorite for that reason. As far as just like what do I want to go back and watch? The fight scenes and interaction scenes, like when they're all like kind of having the conversation over whether they should go with the accords or not. I love seeings like that. You know, it just gets me. I have some things to say about the accords, but we're going to get there. I didn't say the best movie by a long shot. I totally agree. I think either end game or winter soldier. Okay, so winter soldier. I think it's probably just the best standalone movie just from a movie standpoint. Agree with that, because they all, you know, they all tends torch Schlock a little bit. But I think winter soldier is a movie that noncomic book fans can enjoy, not to say that other ones noncomic book fans can't enjoy. I think this one is probably the most solid. You don't even need any set up for what's going going on because everyone knows who captain America is, so you don't need that explain to you and so you can just jump in and enjoy this. This really well made. A little bit of political thrill, a little bit of action, a little bit of intrigue and Captain America being tested when you know the the government he's working for betrays him right when he's not back in nineteen, which we we talked about cap last time, so I'm not going to reiderate my feelings on his art. But end game, I just thought was that's how you culminate rise at Skywalker. Take notice. That's how you comminate a series of movies in a very spectacular way. They didn't they that movie? If you didnt watch infinity game, you had no business watching that movie, which I really appreciate. Right, is that we're infinity war. Okay, okay, sorry, I was caught. Yeah, so, yeah, I really appreciate and detective Pikach, you did this to a certain extent where it was like, if you don't know what Pokemon is, you have no business going to see the Pokemon this movie because it doesn't explain what Pokemon are. It's just like, yeah, they're POKEMON, they're here and game was like, if you didn't watch the first movie, why are you watching this one? So it's clearly I mean to that. You know, you could argue Harry Potter definitely hollows part to twilight whatever whatever, part too, obviously, but this one didn't have a part two behind it, even though it is absolutely a part too. I thought they did a really good job. We knew they were going to we knew that all those characters had to come back right. So it's you know, as much as they tried to tug our heart strings in infinity war, because those actors are signed for more movies, we know those characters are coming back. So there is everything you know, all the stakes are little bit drained by the real world kind of Ruis your suspension to disbelief a bit. But in endgame all the characters who are the old core who aren't coming back, we know aren't coming back, those are fair game. I think black widow was a bit of a shock because she has another movie coming on. Then you're like, okay, so it has to be a prequel. What the Hell, guys? But really just they I just I thought it was really well constructed. Was Super Fun. You know, the whole time heist thing. They paid homage to the entirety of the Lord that they built up from the very beginning and it didn't feel like any characters were starved for screen time or took up too much screen time. I will say the whole Captain Marvel thing was a bit like she's too strong, but that's his captain. Marvel. Being too strong is a separate issue there which some people up for movie for being too strong. Well, no thor of the movie for just, Oh, for being dad bought. Yeah, I thought that was a great yeah, I thought that was fantastic that they took this character who's always been this strong. I can accomplish it. Guy, you know, overcoming all the odds and then, you know, fan of snaps and he kind of skywalker in the way that Luke skywalker should luke skywalker. It was very clear like he he lost his will to fight. Yeah, yeah, because he because, and I you know, I think last Jedi I again could have gone there, but they very clearly established why he let himself go. Yeah, yeah, well, I was I was going to say endgame again, not the best movie. I think I can agree with that. Winter soldiers probably the best standalone movie for me. Going with things that haven't been listed so far, the first guardians of the galaxy movie was just a lot of fun. It was something that I had read guardians of the galaxy, that team before. Most people had not, but even I was sitting there going can they pull off a movie with a raccoon talking raccoon in a tree? And you know, it was one of the Times. Winter soldier was the first one and then I think guardians was right around the same time where they started doing the different yeah, it's a superhero movie, but this is a comedy, this is like a political thriller, this is a heist movie, and they started experimenting with that, and I think guardians is the one that proved that they could pull that off. Yeah, and you know, at a great soundtrack. was just a lot of fun to watch and kind of took a break from all the stuff we had going on on earth and said, hey, this is a bigger universe, which is I really appreciate it. Moving on, kind of the opposite of the spectrum, I think I feel like I...

...know where we're going to go here. But least favorite mcu movies. You want to start off this time with any I don't want to start. It's just going to echo go, but I guess I will. I mean, Captain Marvel's my least favorite mcu movie and again it's right readularly good. Oh, you're a guy who you going like girls, and it's like God, no, it's not. Why I'm really into film and I'd million two characters in their development and it's kind of clear, like it's not even just a little bit. I mean like the movie is not super well received. I mean it's got the lowest rating and of any mcu movie and really her involvement is either she's just your favorite just because, or you're kind of like Oh yeah, there's that girl, and the problem is that she's stronger than everybody else. So it's like you kind of want to do a good job and did it like like, like you think of like Superman, like he is the heart of of the the Justice League, even though he meant might not be the most compelling character, and most people might say, oh, Batman's the coolest, but he still is the face of it. Why? Because he's the most powerful and he's unstoppable. And so here it's like you're powerful, most unstoppable person is kind of like this distant side character that you you fail to developsly, well, who se bag? Yeah, and and and yeah. I mean it was almost intentional and I think, and I get that it's like, Oh, here are these men acting like sex as pigs, and so stick it to them. That's one thing. He being a dick is a totally nothing like. Well, another thing is just he doesn't understand what the word D escalatition means. I think I think they put too much weight on the fact that I like and it come out on like National Women's Day or something around like a week or it was very big and like it did yeah, and it carried a whole lot of weight. With that push to her, it was like, oh my gosh, she we are like this really kind of kind of like bad, bad boy, get girl character, if you want to call it that, like she walks around with a frown on her face, but like every character like that, you think of, like Wolverine, you think of Batman, like they all have these really deep, painful, compelling back stories, and she's just like a bunch of boys kind of made fun of me and it was kind of hard, but I'm a superhero and it was like, like did your parents get killed in an alley and out now you're kind of hustling with whether you should kill people? are of the live or like have you kind of experienced eons of pain? And like you're dealing with that. That's where you're kind of a jerk. It's like, no, I'm just a jerk now and I can. I can, and you're like, all right, didn't you watch the movie? It's because she was way too emotional. They only said it about twenty times. He's yeah, because, well, they had to tell us because it wasn't clear from her acting. Now I'm not gonna hate them, Bere Larson, because she's fantastic and Scott Pilgrim, sure know she's a Guyssol. I totally got her confused with Alison Bree and I was like that's not the person I'm thinking of. She's in community, she's she's great. Okay, I've actually got her name as rain Lars. She hoped TV show yews and breed. I think so. Yeah, on a little that. I feel like she holps supposed to be like six feet tall. Just just go out. She's probably supposed to be big. Well, we get you know. I mean I think like canonically she holds very tall. Well, I mean when she's a hulk. Oh, she did different heights when she's I thought she just stayed. I canna let it, but I thought she stayed as she hoped from the whole time. We're getting off topic. Yeah, anyway, that's still I'm see, I think my least favorite movie is iron ran three. Cavin Marvel was just I honestly found Captain Marvel kind of boring. Again, not be not necessarily because of the characters, but because she's just too strong on like there's no she had no stakes, like she can't die. I found the the creed part are the the scrolls, I thought were the most interesting part of that movie and you know them setting up the scrolls and kind of twisting on the right because you know whole secretivation shifter type person. Yeah, least, and those guys were great. They're hilarious, they were so so I really enjoyed that. But I thought bree large his characters just kind of bland. I just I didn't like. I'm in three also, but I disagree with it being my least favorite just because I mean like it was at least watchable, because you have a character that you already kind of developed a lot and it's like, I didn't think kept marvels unwatchable. I'LL DIS agree with you on that. She's definitely marry sue. Yeah, it's definitely. There's definitely a lot to a lot of my biggest problem is, like, what the heck are they going to do for the sequel? Everyone's stronger than she is, unless they unless they metroyed her and just take her powers away. You mean she's stronger than everyone else? Yes, that's what Sam but did I say? Yeah, my inner sexist is coming out. Everyone's strong, everyone'St no, I remember three. Most of my least favorite because I was so looking forward to Mandarin. When they pulled the Switcheroo, it was just a big slap in the face. HMM, and I was like, I heard some of the arguments were which apparently they got fixed up with Shang Chi. Yeah, ten years too late, marvel. But the idea that they took one of the most iconic villains in iron man and we're like, Nah, he's just playing. And then the real the went, oh my Gosh, when Adrian Brody, or wasn't his name, was an Adrian Roading and it wasn't Adrian All dridge Killian that thank you. When Killian, it's just standing there and just like goes, I like spits fire. It looks identical to a scene from scrubs, when is what on? No, he's like opens his mouth and breathes fire and it looks ridiculous and I remind me it's like one it looks like one of Jd's flashbacks and scrubs. I was like this is stupid. And then pepper like lights on fire and it was just that. Yet old dashing like randomly, like it...

...was a total mess. And and I talked about why I don't think iron man had good arts. You could argue with around that. I honestly think he had the same character arc and every single one it was pivot. It was centered around different, different reasons for his character art, but they all had the same character art. But then in all the other movies, in the Avenger movies, he's the same person. He hasn't learned anything. He's still the same rich douchebag, which I want to talk about this the code. Yeah, I'll are you. I know what I can talk about. The SCOVIA cords. Yeah, will, will jump back into iron man. We can probably cover this covy accords. We talk about the avengers a little bit more. Yeah, I think my least favorite is a pretty basic one. It's just incredible, incredible hulk, just because it feels so disjointed. I enjoyed the movie, but it's just it feels seriously jointed from the rest of them and it's a little bit slower. Why do we not get any other hulk movie? Speaking of Hall Rights Issues? Yeah, classic really it's the same reason we haven't seen, nay more, the sub submariner any some of the other characters before classic hulk can appear in other people's movies, but paramount gets a lot of money appears in his own solo kind of thing. I think it's so weird that comic book rights are messed up. ANYWAYS, next up we're just going to talk go through some of the characters, and we already touched on for a little bit. Yeah, we were talking about one of his biggest character changes, which is back. You know, any that God thor. I thought it was a great move, but fantastic. I think thor has one of the most diverse arcs out of all the characters. Yeah, in the mcu. Yeah, I'll let you guys kind of jump out on that. So my first experience with Thor was my dad used to watch the old for cartoon. Okay, that's just cheesy's all get out. You know, he speaks in Shakespearean English. That's fantastic. That was my first so I've known thor for a long time. And so then when the four movie came out, you know, my dad was like we're going to see this because he grew up watching thor. I'm so we went and were like that was awesome. You know, it was. It was, you know, and it was coming off with the heels iron man I think it was second or third. Cat might have been. I don't know. I have I have no mind for the chronology other than the fact that I know I am in three. Came out after I am meant came out after the first or came out after the second. Iron Man is in the end of Ironman to I think you get the scene where they go and if yeah, yeah, the Hammer. I. Yeah. So I've no idea that the chronology. But Thor was thor thought was fan was fantastic or almost great. For Two was it had that bad sequel problem. We're with kind of the same film but worse. And then thor three was just a blast because Tai Kaiwatt was just like it's a comic book and we're just going to have some fun. Yeah, and it turned out to be fantastic and they did the whole planet hulk thing and and introduce a lot of characters. Jeff Goldbloom. They were like Hey, Jeff Gold and I'M B Jeff Goldboom, and it's great. Say Much stuff. So they really embrace the kind of all the type of ytt style which I thought meshed really well with for who is, you know, God King of space, who undergoes serious struggles, but you can't take him that seriously because he's the god of Thunder. Yeah, the God of Hammers. Sorry, I love his his character arc, even though it wasn't a fan of Thor, Dad Bond. But yeah, my first thought of thor is I didn't know I'm a ton as a character prior to the first movies, and I thought they did a good job at blending because it because my my thought was like, okay, you have these kind of cool characters, like Tony starks, is kind of like a cool guy and he's got all this machinery. You have like like a banner who's The scientist, and he fits in well, like okay, you get a scientist, you have an old school like war hero in Captain American yet and then there's like this mythical God, and I'm like how they're really gonna do this? Like and I thought they did such a good job after watching the first thor movie, because I'm like, it felt so much, in my opinion, it felt very different from the other movies. But then I thought they did a good job just plugging in the minor characters to connft use him in, and I took if I'm being honest, I was never super caught up with a thorn, with it it in him to see where he looked. Liked to see what he was going to do with the avengers. But it did change for me when Ragnarok came on, because I again, I watched the war one and two and was just kind of like are these are fillers, like I'm mainly interested in avengers. But his character started to change a ton with Ragnarok and it's really, I think, and they do such a good job of this, like for seeing his change on the future, because right now he's with the Guardians, Right, Uh Huh, and that that transition was so safe. You thought if you watched the first thorn movie and then you watch guardians the Galaxy and said Hey, thor is going to join the Guardians, you'd be like you are insane, like they're not, like they're like there's there's not going to be any meshing. Thor's are camp likely is complete, you know, like plank of wood. And then the guardians are hilarious. And now you've slowly, over the course of these movies, changed him into like by the time you're watching Ragnarok, you're like this is kind of like a guardians of the galaxy movie, and I and Thor's changing so much as he loses his hair, he loses his eye, and you're so you're already like we've got a different thor coming out of the end of this movie. And and then by the time, obviously you know in game comes around and you have them, they add the huge comic you know, like addition of him being overweight and just kind of being a bum, which...

...it get. It plays him with his character Ark. It actually gives him a deeper a deeper arc than most characters, where it's like he see how he's he's handling this, and where other people, you know, you can be like okay, Tony's over dramatic and he's really sad and cap is going to these meetings, but he's like the most real and authentic, like this guy's just try yeah, like, yeah, yeah, he gave up. Yeah, it's like I don't like seeing that as a fan. I know hardcore fans weren't even a fan of Ragnarok because they are like well, like, I think thor is so cool and this is more of a comedy, like you're just doing it for all the gags. But as somebody's not super attached to thor, I loved it. And and and the thing is, if you think about it, right, thor coming to Earth. It had the whole scene where he knows nothing about earth culture. He throws a COP Cup on the ground another and it's hilarious. Yeah, right, goes to the best scene gets he spends all this time on earth, he starts to pick up the MANNERISMS, yeah, of the other people that he's spending time with. So when you get by Ragnarok, you know he's hit. His personality has a nice personality, but the way he expresses himself has changed. He's always been this kind of, you know, outgoing, fun loving goofballs. Hasn't gotten the bolts. You know he was. He was serious. And it plugs in great with the Guardians, because you have star Lord who's trying to do that with all his companion rights. Tommy Right, Kenny said, he try to come to your door and they like like, guys know, this is how you do it. And then now he gets plugged in with thor. He's like another Alpha male. But but it's it's awesome. Love his character and I think it'll be interesting seeing them go forward, because they're both, at this point, the characters that have made a lot of mistakes, thor and star Lord and are kind of broken and now they've got set up this kind of rivalry between the two of them. And Thor grew so much as a character. You know, ragnarok changed two things so much, reignited the interest in him so much that one Chris Hemsworth wanted to come back after that movie and to He's going to be the first one to get more than three solo movies. They've got thor four lined up. He's going to be in guardians. He's one of the only avengers that they're actually going to move forward with at this point. Yeah, so next up on the sheet, I've got talking about iron man. Start things off before we get too far or before we get into it. One of the things was really interesting. I always I debated saying iron and is one of my favorite friend movies, just because, starting the whole thing off, that movie was so good. It was so much better than I expected it to be. Iron Man's not one of those characters that you think would launch a marvel franchise from what they had. He's one of the better ones. But you know, you you think marvel, before all the Mc you would think spider man, you think x men, you might go to fantastic for for the avengers. Well, Fox made sure we didn't. But yeah, they hadn't quite gotten to that point with the x men yet. Iron man was really interesting choice because even at the time, like comic books, wise, this part of the one of the few times I'll bring this in, like around two thousand and eight the comic events civil war just wrapped up. So even some of like me, who is reading along, enjoyed iron man, did not like him at all at that point. His character, his character in the comics at that point was he done some really dark things between I like he was reason captain America just got killed in the comics. He and Mr Fantastic had thor was gone. They cloned him and like made a robotic clone to do whatever they want. Let it get out of Control and kill Bill Foster, who is the lithe. He was the guy from a man the loss, the other guy that could grow. And then let's see, creating a prison in the negative zone, sending a bunch of heroes there without trial. There's a lot of things that he had done at basically turned into it right, pretty much. Yeah, the civil war in the comics was a little bit more. There's a little more as to a lot more people sided with captain, sided with iron man, which I think in the movie franchise they did a little bit better, kept them more even so I can have that fight scene. Yeah, so I could add that fight scene. But it was a really good is a really good jumping on point. The casting was amazing and they did just enough little seeds throwing in throughout that movie. They say, yeah, we could actually expand this out to a universe. Yeah, yeah, that I you know it. That came out of the I mean technically hulk was the first in the NCU, but that didn't make too much of a splash. Well, the angry one was so bad they immediately were like no, I didn't happen. Is Edward Norton, which was fine. It wasn't, you know, stand outstanding, but it was. It was like yeah, cool, marble movie full. And then I come out everyone was like why is this good? Why is this Comic Book Movie Amazing? Yeah, and you know, now that we've had all these other ones, I don't think it stands out as one of the best ones, but at the you know, at the time it was outstanding and it's springboard. I think it's still one of the better ones. I think it's definitely out there as one of the best. It really is, but I don't think it would make the top five. So maybe six, I don't know. I have to look at I have to I have you'd have to print out the list, but I'd have to get like the magnets to like put the order in her side. I cannot remember. It was so overall as a character, I mean iron man's awesome. I mean Robert Downey JR knocks out of the park. I mean you who doesn't love seeing him, you know, make comments about for you know, talking in old English and just joking around...

...and kind of being overconfident and like I just love the first ad injuries movie, his interactions with everybody, because he's just so, you know, so cocky, like that's that's his character. And to your point, I would say that he doesn't develop like a normal character develops in a movie, because he's kind of the center point of like a million movies and he really develops like a real person in my opinion. So in my opinion, when a character develops in a movie what like. So let's say somebody struggles with, you know, being an alcoholic or something in a movie. Right, like they get to that one point he starts. So they get to the one point where they're like, you know what, I'm not going to take this drink at one time and Bam that all of a sudden they're a different person and they don't drink anymore, whereas in real life, your character, yet your real character arc in real life is a little more messy, like you do change and you develop as a person, but it's it's done a lot slower and so like, like my what I'm thinking is like a transition from iron man one to two. You have you have Tony Stark, who is just super overthetop. I mean he's his arrogant, you know, classic playboy whatever, and he's all about getting the money. He hasn't really thought of like of like the moral the morality of like what he's doing. And then finally he does and he realizes he wants to do something better, but he's still kind of the same person. And so iron man too comes out and now he is the Superhero Guy. He's the one putting his life on the line, but he's still the kind of like arrogant, like showoff he guy. He's actually become more arrogant. But yes, he's embraced the Superhero Persona right and he thinks that's the thing that's going to change and now all of a sudden, I'm doing good things, I don't have to change this about me. And it's not till he gets to the avengers that he really starts changing it to your point. Yet one, two and three he hasn't done a lot of changing. But over the course of all of iron man, by the time he's getting to the end and he's do you in the classic you know like what. We all know how it ends. You know you're in love with a character and you're like, oh my gosh, and like and he did. He has the little hiccups aout the whole thing and he has the part in in an end game where he comes back and he's just angry. He's like you said, we do that together and he's all mad at Captain America. So that part made sense as a relapse and I think infinity warn end game is where he actually showed the character growth that they were there were that he showed the character growth that they said he'd had in all the other movies. Because, like iron and ended, I am in one end of Miment to and the three. They act like he's changed, but he hasn't. So then he has to go through the same arc over and over again. But then an endgame he actually goes to that are he does get the angry thing, you know, and Ixit. That time it's justificcts. Is Like I don't want to lose his family that I've created. I don't know if they're expect thinking that he's changed, because, no, no, I'm not saying the characters in the film. I'm saying they're they're trying to. The movie is telling me that Tony has changed. Yeah, but then the same. But then when we move to the next movie, instead of showing me him relapsing like it does an endgame, it just restarts him without giving explanation as for why he went back. You know I'm saying. You say, I don't know if I'm following too well, but I would say that they knew what they were doing as far as his character like like, like baby like, he leads me the wrong way. A lot of time. It's not like the characters around him were treating him like Oh, you finally figured it out. I mean they're up a whole thing. We talked about Socoviya chords. I mean is like do we wanna? All right, I remans. Think it's actually a pretty natural thing because next time we had a BIS captain America, you don't have to go on the but yeah, we can actually talk about we can go into civil war and can cap a little more during sequels and Sagas we I talked about why I think Captain America's Great. Okay, I think he I think he's a character who is always they always keep him likable, that's true, but they, I think, they, I think they do it. You know, he's clearly there's never a time where I'm like Cap, you made him at you made a bad choice, or like you made the rock. You, you, you messed up cat. But he fails. But it's not the same. This in him, you know, making the choice. You know the choice. Were like no, don't, don't go in that doory side behind it, don't you know? That's where I think, here's what maybe so angry about the szakovie courts. Okay, ultron happens. Okay, Tony Start Builds, ultron gets Bruce Banner on board. You know the the whole thing blows up in their face and then they have to go fix it, and they do, and a lot of people die along the way. Cut The civil war and they have that whole thing in. Where was it? I've seen, yeah, everyone's UNAMI stare. It is. Yeah, turmoilist and right, plot devices Stan. Right. So they go to plot devices stand and they're trying to thwart these terrorists. Right. There's a bomb that's going to go off in a crowded plaza, so Scarlett, which throws up in the sky and it isn't taking out the hotel killing people. Right, and because of this they're like, oh, we need to reign in superheroes. Okay, first of all, people were going to die from that bomb regardless. That is true. Right, you don't. But if a bomb disposed a guy doesn't manage to defeat these a bomb and it blows up and kills people, you don't say, all right, the police need to be like, the bomb disposal squad needs to be brought under the the there. They got too you know that out of control. Right, you don't say that, especially if he gets it away from the very large crowd on the ground and into a right contained so so. So you talk about unavoidable casualties, in that case, those are unavoidable casualties. So, yeah, it's it's not good that people died, but the same time, people were going to die.

That wasn't there was no part that was scarlet, which is fault. Right, okay, now. And so then they come up with Secovia cords, right, and they're like, okay, the Superhero Side of control. We need them, we need to have a rain on them. Sure, okay, fine, I get that. At some level, at some of like it why governments would want to control them. Tony gets on board, saying, yeah, we're too powerful, we're too data DUA. You know, ultron, that was me. And at that point, why was every other hero not like you're right, Tony, ultron, that was you. You're literally the only person who needs to sign these cords. Everyone else has not acted in a way that would lead to that has led to disasterous consequences. You're the only one who's caused some sort of large scale desigistor argument that they should have only asked Tony doing on the cords. Are you saying that? I'm saying it doesn't make sense to anyone else sides with Tony. So, especially because Tony's tone these you tony uses ultron and Socovia, and the whole world does, uses to Kobe as the reason why all the superheroes need to be brought in control right. So that that is a hundred percent. It's always fault and it was only Tony and Tony's the only one to blame. So it's completely unfair and out of wine for anyone to say that, cap because Tony was an idiot, I'm going to punish you because you have only ever used your powers in a stand up way. So I can tell you that from what the movie is trying to do, the movie tries to solve all of those problems that you're talking about. Whether it's a good job or not is to be seen and it is really up to you. But this is why the movie starts off with with, with Tony Not even being involved in that first scene. I mean Tony is is off having his feelings kind of stirred up by that woman at his conference. It's like you killed my son and he's not even involved in that. Yeah, and he should said, you're right, I killed your son, not any of these other people who tried to stop that and in a damn good job stopping altron from killing everyone. Sure, but we like, whose fault was it that all these ships fell out of the sky, and not necessarily whose fault is it? Because, because, again, I know the point you're making, but also, I mean it's pretty self evident even in our real world that when when things happen, you can be like, okay, well, this is one thing. You know, like it could have been worse. And but like people use that to prop up their agendas and what they were thinking. I really I recognize that. But you would think the other superheroes. Again, I understand why they had to kind of fifty split it so one could have the great fight. It just doesn't make sense from a character standpoint. Why anyone? It's the same thing in injustice. Right Superman snaps, it's like I'm going to take over the world. The heroes who side with him? It makes no sense. It makes sense from a Oh he's just gonna safeguard when he starts executing people, then you're like, okay, Superman. What the heck? What the heck is this? Well, I think in the movie part of the reason people side with and they don't give cap the benefit of the doubt immediately is the winter soldier coming back and get they frame up that assassination, that bombing really quickly for the winter soldier, and cab goes off, no, he's innocent, I'm going to go bring him in myself. There's all this political stuff going on. So I think that's why some of the people kind of shy away. They're like little cap. Yeah, Tony's been reckless, but caps kind of be in reckless right now too. And then I think some of the reason maybe it's not even siding with Tony, but some of the people that stay with him, like the scarlet or not scar which black widow, Natasha, she's being a good soldier. You Got Roady, who is you know he's there's the military mootable as far as in character, better rooting Roady, I get it look rody and toy like vision and scar especially scarlet, which the human here's what I'll say is is those are two main characters. You have to ask yourself, why is it that we would have actually change, and now I agree with you. They were doing this. So there would be a big fight at being but did. They could do a good job. It's putting them up and they at least make an attempt to have each of those character characters rationalize why they did it. It's not like the Sir s I just I understood that they did that. I just think it was it stretched my it'St some limits of what I was willing to believe those characters would do. But even in that like it was cool to see characters like the Falcon be like hey, weren't you just the woman a little while ago they told the government to kiss her ass, like, I know this is not like me, but I'm I'm playing the terrain and so like yeah, the whole time you're watching you can be thinking he's after what you're thinking, which is understandable. Each I was, yeah, separate the gang, but at least the movie is attempting and doing a decent job. As shure, I still enjoy the MOU and I still enjoy the movie. I just really don't think Tony got the proper comeuppance for creating ultron. Right, he got like a marginal step on the wrist, which was the Secovia chords. was then got dropped. Right, I don't know if they are. They didn't really get dropped. They never talked about them. They just like give them an fingers. However, stuff seen of all guys and they kind of all stuff. That the the idea of the Secovia chords, the idea that everyone, that the all the people, would get behind this. Right, that like the the citizenry is behind this, the Secovia chords. As far as they show us, the citizenry is for the Secovia chords. Right, the regular Joe's, what the Hell happened in...

New York? Where are the regular Jos? WHO GOT THEIR ASS? Is saved by, you know, aliens attacked. Who stopped it? The Avenger stopped it. So at some level will. But even even at the end of that movie, what do you get? You get a mixed reaction from everybody going, I don't know how I feel about this. Oh, I don't feel safe. The fact that they're here kind of and then vision echoes that and says the fact that we're here invites chaos. You know, it's all these people are kind of feeling that they're like y Sayers at different exit. They just except that more models on it. Well, okay, okay, vision does because they finish, I mean, but that's just wrong. They didn't invite any of this stuff here, and that's a line that's a lightning a lot of the whole control of the superhero things. That's a line that people like to throw out is, Oh, you know, if you weren't here, they wouldn't be here. But that's not how it isn't that truth? I was no, it's really not. Not I will say, you know, we're taking like what's works going into the I'll take it back into the real world. Just looking at median things to people always really react rational or do they just want to be in control? I will grant you that. But you wouldn't get everyone on the issue saying, Oh yeah, we need to control superheroes. I'm not saying you wouldn't get anybody, in fact you would. In fact, the governments would always be like, we need to have control over these superheroes because they're going to be he is, they're aggressing on our how are doing right? Because if they are a potential threat to our powers. So governments are always going to want to have control of the superheroes. But the idea that I think it makes a lot of sense. Yeah, but people would get behind it, and I'm not saying that's right or wrong. Okay, so we have anti war people right in like Vietnam War. Okay, right, that made a lot of sense. We were in the Vietnam War for some sketchy reasons. Yeah, right, so makes a lot of sense to people might protest that. Even when you get to like World War II, there's still some people who might be like, we should be fighting this war, although you know, after Japan attacked, those voices kind of disappeared somewhat and most people were just fine with being a more if we get invaded it no one's going to be like these soldiers are out of control. Right. So the just and again it's not. It's not just civil war. Every every single we need to reign in the power of the superheroes leans on this idea that they're somehow causing the or inviting the bad things happen or causing the bad things that happen. But the reality is they're not, and if they weren't there, you would get host all right, well, a little. Let me give you a kind of example. So let's say that they were all on a different planet. There's low key attack earth. In that case, yes, because that's where the tests ARACT was. No, they wouldn't that. He was after the test. Right, Loki? First of all, Loki is not chasing down the avengers. Low suit was taking the chasing the macguffin. That was on earth. So on some sense, okay, if you have like Oh, here's this, this purse. If the person's, if the bad guy's agenda, is just to kill the hero, then yeah, it matters where they are locationally. But that's not, ever, the Super Villain s goal. Superman's goal is to seize power. And right, ricky goes, goes to the government, says bow down to me. Right, situation that the earth was just kind of like it was just kind of the he he didn't come to conquer earth. No, he came to get the test react. Yes, so people were like the test had been somewhere. All this business somewhere else, all this supernatural stuff is literally destroying and killing all of us. We almost blew up New York City. I don't care who's on whose side? We don't know any of them, but that's superviseful. Know they're telling that was the again, that was the macguffin. You remove the mcguffin and sure that threat goes away, but that's that's just the avengers there. Right, if you think about all the other threats, so like Obadiah, the whole weapons thing, weapons development thing, you think about. Okay, I am in too. That's the revenge plot. Yeah, I'm in three, not a revenge pot. Right, he's still going to see his power. The terrors, the mandalor the Mandalorian, the Managerin Terri splots, still happen regardless of whether iron man is there or not. Okay, because it so. Some of those were revenge focused. Right, winter soldier. If caps not there, they're still going to use the winter soldier. So it the the fact that he's there to stop it and to be that nemesis doesn't affect their goals. It just impedes their goals. Their goals weren't centered on that. Again, in some of the movies they absolutely were. Civil war. It was so in that case. You, but of course that's like you want to go down that rabbit hole. What started this whole chain. It was Tony Stark. He's the only one who needs to be rained. Of course, they all play for the same team and if you go all the way they and go all the way back down the rabbit hole to Avengers, the same shady world governments that are talking about the Scovia chords, they're way to stop the alien threat was, hey, let's new New York, right, so, so, so, I'm II have no I take no unbridge with them using that as a plot device. Right. I just find it annoying that that's the only plot device anyone can come up with to divide well, heroes. What I think what really happened there is, and we'll talk about the DCU and dce and a little bit, is they were going to do with their captain, American movie Robert Downey Junior, wanted to do more iron man.

You want to make more money, and they announce Mattman v Superman. Yeah, and so they were like, okay, well, we need to make this into civil war, some war. And the comics is this whole thing about, like should we reveal there is a huge aster? That's about totalities, totally teenage superheroes fault. They blow up a school like in a battle. Totally their fault. It's a little more understandable and it's all about secret identities. They had nothing like that to build into the mcu. There was no big conflict that they could really have. Be ready for me to like speak out of both sides of my mouth. and X three, where they like this the Mutant Registration Act. I'm totally on board with that. So I'm okay with I'm okay with it being like we need to keep tabs on people, right, because that was x one. That was x three. Was The mutant registration? No, x three was let's let's kiss to the music. was X one, mutant registration? Yes, it's been a long time. A scene. which whichever one it was, I think the point of that was. Now, obviously people were like, Oh, you're right, rite, it was you. People are like, oh, that's going to be used for discrimination, which, yeah, it could be used for discrimination. But at the same time, and people compared it to like to race. Okay, but having a different skin tone is not the same as being able to destroy a building by looking at it. You need a license for a car, you need a license for a gun, because these things are dangerous and you shouldn't be allowed to have it until you can prove that you can use it safely. So at some level you know there there needs to be a system in place, which is what was it? What is it? What was what Charles Oxavier was intending to do was to create a safe space for mutants to explore their powers. Right, and you know there's a way to do it that doesn't involve concentration camps. Right. The Way to do it is say, okay, we know your child is a mutant. So when you know when they are one or if they manifest our powers before they you need to take them in for testing. Will categorize their powers into you know they have, they have power levels, into such and such a level and if there are such and such a level, then they they have to attend x YC school, the same way you would do any kind of special needs education. Right, you have system set up for that. Not, I'm not again, that's a bat. I'm not trying to compare special needs with superpowers. Here we go right the ideas that you have this infrastructure where my child has certain needs and we have these infrastructures. We right, we test for those at early ages. Would do genetic testing. We do, you know who do other tests to see does your child have down syndrome? Does your child have a mental disability? And if they do, we're going to put them into programs. are going to help them with those things. DYSLEX can your child, you know, create fire? Can your child turn into water? Can You? Can you child, but throw probably going to put your reading like in a they did a good job in x one. Is that they they least drop you into universe where everybody was scared of them already. Oh, sure, I have. The problem is that they were and I can't relate because we're like I get that out mutants and likes me, and that's people. That okay. And and this is the same thing that happens in in in like the Harry Potter Universe and every universe with there are there's like a special class of human is. There's always, always this huge discrimination of US versus them, which I think is way overplayed. Yes, yeah, know, they're absolutely would be some, but a lot of people would be like that is so cool. But you can create really watches xo. My friend is a person with firehand. Everybody watches x two and when like Bobby Drake like touches the the water and freezes it in the mom just like freaks out and runs away. You're like no, everyone, why are we kidding? You just saw like that. Everyone like do it again. Can you show my drink? That's so that's so cool. But but, I mean, at least it's consistent with the idea that, like, people are a little unsettled by this and like we have no way to go off, that we can always put ourselves in like the I would be the righteous one shoes. But like, sure, we will never know how the world would reacts to a bunch of people I could all of a sudden like do really creepy and weird things. Yeah, have you ever been around magicians? Those are unreal and nothing. Oh, they are real and like get you haven't see what Hap is it going to be? Ill, and I think we've I don't know that I've done a great job as a moderator on this one, because I feel like yeah, but a long time, go fast, go fast, fast, all right, so quick from it's the going like just character by character. What are some of the other characters you guys wanted to talk about? Maybe are movies. I thought aunt man was a really fun break from it was get the the marvels, get a kind of formula, kind of an onmous. They're like, all right, it's time. I watched oceans eleven. Lets do a heist, and so I thought I would. Meant, I will say that, like, Paul Rudd is just the most likable. Yeah, he's like on the earth. He' Hilary, like as soon as it was like he's ant man, I'm like, I don care how this movie is, it's going to be amazing just because of him. I did think the first one was kind of like it was just your traditional like hey, you're fighting like another version of yourself and like. But they framed it as a heist, which made it which made it fun. Yeah, I mean, I don't we just can't get away from the have to fight a dark reflection of yourself. I will say these can't be extra characters in aunt man are the greatest. Oh Yeah, here's the secondary Catholic and they are a phenomenous ti. I mean it's fricking the rap from he's exactly. That's the best. Less his his...

Hispanic friend. Oh, the drunk history. Almost they still need to do. Luis explains the entire MC. Yeah, yeah, that's that's that's what I want. Other than aunt man, doctor strange is obviously a likable character. Doctor Strangers good, he's essentially and I love and so like it. Always hard pressed not to pick infinity wars my favorite movie, just because it has the same thing as civil war does, with the characters coming together to have him met each other yet Becaueah, you just get a ton of that and it's so good. The Guardians Meeting, you know, Tony and doctor strange and spider man and all these Spiderman meeting Dr Strange and for meeting doctor straight it. So it's all good. And and when doctor s range and Tony have their little interaction it's just perfect because they're essentially the same character. Like doctor strange is like the most successful badass surgeon. I mean he is just like he's total like douchebag male, like dominant kind of character, and he gets humble and he gets these powers, but these kind of the same guy, like he's kind of a little like like overcompetent, but now he's a wizard and you have Tony, as you've explained, you know, is it's Psycaus, this superhero, but he's still kind of his arrogant he's always going to come up with a quip, and doctor string is trying to do the same thing and it's just so like they're both so good like making fun of each other, where they met each other and played off each other. That that was I saw, but I loved our character. Black Panther was great, although so the problem I have with Black Panther was I was on the fill in side right until he was like and so let's murder all white Peah. Yeah, wait, that's me, don't do that. But I was I was like no, he's totally right. Wa Konda, you are sitting on you are I would say. They had a moral obligation to help the countries around them and they didn't, and I understand why. They're like, well, we don't want. What even was it there? Like we want we want to stick to ourselves because we don't want to be exploited. Like there's a difference between opening yourselves to exploitation and helping the people next to you who are dying of malaria. And it's really hard to be exploited when you have a giant force field around your entire country. Right. Yeah, so they're such a powerful nation. Right, I would say that. You know, I grew this is the real world. I would say the US, as the US and China, all the all the g eight nations, I would say, have an obligation to help developing countries because we can provide funds that they need to build infrastructure to actually get to it's hard to introduce an entire nation that you're keeping invisible. No, no, I get it. I was like shield again, late Tony Start. Get it, for plot reasons. Yeah, I just think it's bizarre to me. And then, okay, the other bizarre thing to me is, and I get why they did it, for for like plot reasons and for framing reasons, where they mirrored the beginning of the end with he opened the thing in the US and they like we're going to help out compton and that's great, but I really feel like the first thing they should have opened up is in the destitute nations right next door to them. Yeah, yeah, it was kind of like and you even have a scene where like seemingly a random person that's not in Waconda, like a like a little little African kid, is like watching a spaceship lie into the force field and you're like wait, who is he? Like the tribal so it was around them, just kind of like Oh, we got spaceships fly over all time. You don't know what the hell they go. They just fly to the mountain. Oh. Then they disappear and it's like one of the none of them speaking up English to be like Hey, like world, there's a there's a lot going on here. I think. I think they still supposed to be part of Waconda. I think they have that, you know, that surrounding here? That, yeah, those villages on the outskirts, like where they called the winter soldier. Yeah, so, so so with Michael B Jordan was like Yo, this is messed up. Yeah, no, you need to be hell upping all the you need to helping all the oppressed black people, and hus like right on, do that, we're going to kill everyone else. Mike, no, that's not the right answer. He's got like they've got like infinite everything. They're like they have this this metal material that's also like an AI organism that also heals people if you make it into balls. Oh, and if we want to talk about strong female characters, I thought Black Panther had the best strong female characters. Oh, yeah, it's in the most likable. Yeah, they were really talk about the characters that you must honestly, I think they I think I like I want to see a movie about them. Yeah, because Chap Boseman was great, but really, I think they stole the show. I thought they were fantastic. Yeah, she, like like his little sister, is just like super enjoyable because she's, you know, making quips and stuff, but she's also a genius and like in like she's a she's a strong character. What are they? They didn't just like, I don't know, they didn't just sit there and and over and and he's not. And they did a great job having strong female characters that weren't, you know, stepping on all the men. Like they're both and power, both great. So and and they did a really good job fleshing up Black Panther of like he's yeah, he's kind of a pampered prince, which is why he ends up coming to heads with what is the name of the actual villains? Name Come Unger, kill monger. Right, hands up, bank heatery. So longer because kill monger Wright had his traumatic backstory in was it comped?...

It wasn't compton, it was open. It was called comps. It Oakland in the United States. It was in the and Iret. Sure was in California, but anyway, you're at he you know, he grew up in the hood. He had that that, he had the black American experience and that shaped him in a very negative way. Right. He because he's you know, he wants to fight injustice, but then because of his going into the army and going into the assassin business, the only way he knows how to fight injustice is with is with violence. And then Black Panther is sitting on the CONTON throne, saying, yeah, we see the injustice, but we value our security more than that, and then him having to come to terms with the fact that the injustice is so bad that kill monger is willing to do all these things to see that his people aren't depressed anymore worldwide. And then, you know, the resolution is, okay, you're right, we're going to help the people, but we're not going to do it by killing everyone else. And there's a lot of little things with the without like Black Panther was a good movie, but come longer really looked out in the fact that one to child didn't explain when he came back to his head security guy that, you know, he promised he was going to bring back claw and the only reason he didn't was he captured him and then kill monger broke him out. Yeah, that man. That confused me. So, yeah, his plan to get into Wakonda he had claw. So there were a lot of really convenient things where it's like, Layne killmonger did walk into a Conda. Anybody he ran into could have just been like hey, dude, stop, you're in jail. Yep, you had to go on the guy that had beef with you know that beat with Jachala, was like Oh, like, you're here to take the throne. All right, come this way, and it was like really, like, that's what you did. You just walked right in and then that was it, like you're just sitting on the throne out of you can. Like there were a lot of convenient things. It also just kind of felt like I was watching the lion king. Yeah, I mean it was. It was very lanking, yess, but that's a good movie, so I'm not play. Yeah, no, it was. It was entertaining, it was good. It was a better live action the lion king than trying to think of other standout so my favorite character, marvel character, is always been spider man. So and we can talk in a spider man basic episode more about you are yeah, we're going to devote a whole episode different versions, but I I really enjoyed the mcu version. I like the relationship he builds with Tony Stark, getting a different character for the most part than the one you have in the comics, but it does manage to capture a lot of the really fun stuff about but catch is that core of spider man quits because he's really nervous. It's kind of nervous energy, which I think Tom Holland does a really good job of portraying. And there and of course he looks like he's ten, so that helps. And they're able to build that father son relationship with iron man really quickly, which is something. Again, when iron man was the do the iron man movie in the civil war thing, he had just built that relationship with Peter Parker and then totally betrayed. So it was one of those things. But let's see we talked about the guardians a little bit. Already kind of talked about aunt man, the wasp. We've talked about Captain Marvel for a little bit, I think, and we've kind of touched on it since then. I think they just really one of the things I had with Captain Marvel is she wasn't really needed for end game. They had a lot of really strong female characters that they could explain why. Why what's his name lost his offcuse? You were talking about. It was a cat, which is pretty believable. I have several cats and they could claw your eye out any time. But then they already had and they were getting ready to get into this, I think, with the next doctor strange movie, the scarlet witch and vision TV show. But scarlet, which is crazy powerful. Yeah, and she can in a way that, without trying to get into too much, is can be incredibly creepy. So I think, and I think we're about to delve into that, in the movies and stuff, did they explain why she has her powers? I don't remember that. She was experimented on with her brother, with the with the with the incinity stones. Okay, which is the which is the MO's not magnetos. Are they going to rep on that Seamoune, those daughter for that in it possess that act like quicksilver and scarlet, which are actually Magneta's baby. Yeah, Silber and and Scarlett, which are our maximovs, and the reason their maximus is because that's technically magneto's last name. So right they it's funny when, when age of ultron came out, was right. When x men write day, he's a pastor fatastic had to some yet to silver's quick soil. These days, a future pass quicksilon was definitely better. N It's easy. He's one of the coolest character that's see what has been recreated like nine billion times now, and every time they have speaks to movie. That scene was just brilliant and that's good, and that's why quicksilver didn't survive age of ultron. Yeah, like the only reason. They're like, oh, he's way cooler. So yeah, Wanda and wanted in Pietro scar which and quicksilver, they are supposed to be magneto's children,...

...but around that same time the cons are like, oh no, well, maybe they're in humans or something. We don't like talking about mutants because we can't humans? Yeah, make movies about those guys. Well, they I don't think the movie is ever gonna come out. They they made a TV show that we don't admit exists. He did ever get a air? Yeah, yeah, I got aired. It was in Imax and it was Brus is not good. The in humans TV show. I remember that spun out of agents. Everyone is blacked it out. Well, the days. I know agents of shy all did did in humans. Yeah, where? That's where all the people they interact with get their power. I think agents of shield one of the greatest things about it, and it was. It's had a rocky thing and they's not even technd scanner hands. Wait, what? Yeah, they kind of done the time travel, alternative time whining and they couldn't really talk about end game or anything. Okay, so I haven't so I the last age and I don't want season. I mean I think it's four five there in the Matrix. Yeah, so that's that's the season. I'm so don't spoil. I think the point that I just love that. So just real quick on ages of the shield. I love that they made grant such a Dick, so cha hatable character and then they found a way to keep him as the villain, even when it wasn't technically the same person. I was like, okay, that's well done. Well, it's fun because I is a face that I hate and but he's not the same character. And I was saying, Hey, they act as like ansliking paid. Yeah, it's a win win. And I was going to say the highlight of that show was actually when they were they started out sinking him up to the movies, and they did in little ways, until Captain America, the Winter Soldier. Yeah, and if you're watching that show alongside, when they did the Hydra reveal and they destroyed shield, yeah, it was really good. And then it's been a roller coaster. Yeah, or and ever since. But and apparently that's coming back with a fully time travel focus season. They're about to finish it out. Hoo Boy. But they're like legend tomorrow, we can do that. Yeah, now we're moving into we're spanding into all kinds of stuff, you know, Disney plus, when red looking at Netflix shows, I don't think we're gonna claim anymore because I think they're still going to get rights to daredevil again soon. Daredevil was so good. We're not going to touch on that. That's not yeah, it's not enough. It's a different is good, it was supposed to be, but, you know, rights issues and things. And then get your crap together, marvel. Yeah, but we're moving now. Everything'soned by Disney almost entirely and we're going to be moving into all kinds of stuff. She harder man's look in the air again, Moon night. Well, I was always up in here, you know. We got a couple more ice like finagled himself back it's pleasically called people and cried about it and I'm home. Called me crying. I would do whatever do you want and wanted me to do. Yo, please, Fox, please, I'M gonna go. Mr Fox, is it Fox at all? This is Tony for that one. Sorry, Disney owns Fox now. That's why we can do mutants. Okay, that's pretty much. That's most of we had. You had at the end versus the DCU, when I will say part of the reason I think Miss Marvel are not Miss Marvel. That's the TV show's coming out. Captain Marvel ended up getting pushed to the forefront is because one of the things one to see you did do right is they made the first female superhero movie and they did a good job. Yeah, and and I saw a really interesting comparison between wonder woman and and Captain Marvel, because said because they were looking at and they're like, you know, okay, Bo neither woman, neither characters really ever in any danger because they're both so powerful. Yeah, arguably, you know, Ari's could have beat her, but it was a final boss. She's not going to give beat by. are like yeah, it's a we're we know she's going to win. But wonder woman still undergoes an interesting arc because she has to deal with man's world and see how bad man's world is and wondering is it still worth saving man's world? Right, and so she still had a huge struggle, whereas captain marvel was like you need to stop being emotional. When was she emotional? In she's explained to me when she was emotional in a way she looked like her face has been botach. And again, I'm really not trying to hate on Bre Larson. It's not because she's a woman. I love is the writing or what I wonder woman was fantastic. No, okay, so I think that wonder woman kind of govern marble just got a warning. She reflects a little bit of a Black Panther in her movie, where it's like you have like like, but the conflict is within her, as opposed to different characters have different opinion. Yeah, the cotton off one conflict is within her, exactly say. And the started to love some of the bubble and this broken world, but I also could just kind of like stay in my safe place, it in my world, and not get hurt by being here. Well, it wasn't even like the not getting hurt, it was well, the moot, the whole idea. No, I don't mean. Yeah, the whole idea was, you know, her mom's like, man's look what they're doing. They're horrible, they're not worth saving. Little my wipe each other out right, and so she's like no, we we have save them. And then she goes like, Oh wait, this is way worse than I thought. Yeah, and to decide is it actually worth saving, and she ends up deciding it is. Thanks good. Yeah, it's also hard to create a character that might not succeed in doing that when that's the mean, when that's the main like tussling point,...

...when it's like are you going to say them? Are you not? Point to. Then there's like a second wave of like okay, I decided to save them. Oh are you getting like, can you save them or can you not? Like is they're going to get in a point too, and usually that's this, that second one at least, I thinks like yeah, is, I think the best. So one of my fate, one of so there's this book series that was my favorite book series right up until the end. Have one of the trashest endings of all times, called the pen dragon series, or ten books, and it's based on this idea that there are ten different worlds that are all linked together and all their destiny, these are like tied together. It's more complicated in that, but basically this kid ends up being he don't remember exactly how he got suckered into it or exactly the reason why, but he's basically like so this he's a person who can travel between the different worlds, and so he and the main villain are fighting over these turning points. So each world is like approaching a turning point that's going to decide whether it goes towards a good ending or a bad ending. Essentially, that's being reductive with us. Essentially, it and so you're going through the first couple books and you know he's fighting with the bad guy bed ends of winning. And the second book and he's fighting it. Goes to next planet and he's fighting with bad guy. Any ends up winning and he goes the next planet. And the fourth book you're like, all right, I figure out and he fighting with bag and the bad guy wins and he loses and he did. There's no do over, there's no he can't do a timehist and go fix this. And so then from that point on it is totally up in the air whether he's going to win or lose. And so after that point, after he after the book that ends on a bummer where it's like you just got your butt kicked and that world's gone. You do you lose that world forever. It's all gone, all the people are gone. You've lost. And from that point on it gets really interesting because you don't know to like almost the George R Martin thing, where you don't know what characters are going to live. You don't know. You think, obviously he's got to win in the end, but how is he going to win? He started losing and it's what does winning look like? Yeah, well, I'm saving all of them, or does it right? Lose? And what it ends up looking like was he became one with the universe. It was to I don't want to get into it. It maybe so many was the worst too. I think it was like and end you don't. The ninth book was like, Oh my gosh, what's gonna Happen? In the Tenth Book was like what? I cry? Well, but but so empire does that right. It ends on that Downer note of how are they going to get out of this? Like you're assuming in the end the good guys are going to win, but it ends in that bummer note. Infinity word did that too. We know that they were going to somehow bring people back, but how are they going to do it? What's it going to cost them? So so wonder woman did that in a way within one movie of We know she's gonna win whatever fight she gets into, but what's it going to cost her? Where's Captain Marvel was? What's the cost there? There was no cost. The cost was getting emotional, which her only emotion was I'm a little angry, but even that wasn't that emotional. Like she and she's just little. She's literally a jet engine. That's all she is. That's a jet engine. Become one with the jet. Chuck yeager will be proud and I'll say like talking about it versus the DC and kind of as a wrap up, I think part of the reason why the mcu is worked and the DC Universe is not is because the mcu really embraced from the first start, from iron man, where they started showing seeds for the different thing, because it really embraced how comic books are made, where you've got all these different stories with the same with similar characters, the same characters put taking place in the same world and they're going separately but every once in a while they can verge a little bit. Now that form of storytelling, when you do it every month, can lead to some pretty terrible stories. But there I would be really selective with the movies, but they really embrace kind of a goofiness, kind of that everything's happening all at once and for movies, honestly, that's probably one of the first times you've had well, here's this concurrent story and it's not just a spin off. Year's another movie that's happening the same universe and this happening over here and they're kind of you can kind of see him overlap just a tiny bit. But until avengers they didn't overlap. And what DC tried to do is, hey, we had a superman movie, let's do the movie where they two characters overlap and we'll talk about that more in the future of Batman v Superman. Yeah, we U was there. We definitely need to talk about that. But so, if I were to boil it down to the one thing that marvel did right that DC did wrong is marvel was like we're making Comic Book Movements, Uh Huh. And and so they were comic book ee DC. And I think they shot themselves in the foot because of how good Nolan's Batman trilogy was. Yeah, nold's Batman trolly was very intentionally grounded in reality to some extent, right, and he put the the this brace, let's be punched, a concrete okay, there's a little bit of yeah, called magical realism or, you know, stretching. No, that was very much for it was very much based in realism, which, okay, Bay should have been the intelligent one it and not going to put that out of her. But the problem was then, when, when they're trying to lunch their dcu. They're like, okay, this is what people want. They want gritty, serious realism. And then they made superman gritty serious. Superman is a fairy. He takes for Truth Justice an American way in his underpants. Yeah, is that there was a horrid way America, with the power of the America, with...

...power to fly. So trying to make superman great, which is not to say Superman can't have serious moments injustice shows us how to view a serious superman thing. But you can't just have superman start off being like ha ha ha. Well, I would say. I would say, on top of the fact that Nolan, also lex luther was just today. Did they ever read a comic or watch them thing or understand anything about LEX LUTHER? He's not the joker. I think they were trying to invent him. Is like a modern day like Texo, obsessed with himself, obsessed with power. It just which is much mark sucker from the social also calculating, logical and shrewd, and he had hair. There is not a villain to be a villain. Luther is a villain, primary will kirk. He wants power, but he's Primari motivation against Superman is he so covid court thing. He just doesn't trust superman right, like he's actually a good guy in a lot of these bigger justice league movies where he realizes, all right, I need a team up with you guys, because he really does care about about metropolis. He just think that he's the best in bastice league. He's he just wants to come on and bring out and become God. He cares enough about the world to know that he can't really rule over it or have power over it if it gets destroyed. No, yeah, I think the comparing the two, on top of the fact that these came in the light of in the shadow of Nolan's excellent depiction of a Batman. That and instead of just saying Oh, like like we can't really like let's totally it, like we've got to move in a new direction from from those like completely, it was just like right after that they're like, let's how quickly can we get to doing like an Avenger style movie on our side, and it was just like let's just do it now, let's will create one movie that kind of introduces all these characters and a weird like security yame video. They did it back when. Then then we'll spread out and make them all their individual movies when it's the flash movie coming out. Yet that also it also made no sense to me that they were like here's a completely separate flash when the flash that they had on TV at that point was excellent, and now they're on the same universe because they've done a crossover to like on the same multiler SC Yess, I don't know. It's it's difficult just because to the I think they have more characters. I don't know that that are just like they're a little too so you have like Green Lantern Right, like is he a part of the main core of the Justice League? Yes, I like he's not even there at all. Like you have. You have Cyborg, who's a huge character in their justice league and team titles. But so he's also he just showed up in the justice they didn't way better in doing patrol. There's like he's not anywhere else to be seeing. He hasn't had his own movie. Same thing with the flash and so like it's just bizarre. It's weird to not be able to latch onto really characters that have developed and it you like because you like you know the characters but like, I don't know, they just did such a bad job. I think the thing is like the main audience had not gotten movies. They hadn't gotten a chance to latch onto any of these characters, and the ones that fans were really going to look at. Superman, Batman, who aren't we really recognizable, like the Superman that'll snap a person's neck and then we'll have a movie where he has like four scenes of dialog and just kind of Mokes around the whole time, or Hashtag, and then you know the Batman that'll if that wasn't the most poorly written plot point in all which I thought their fight, I thought was pretty good. I but but goodness gracious if that wasn't the dumbest plot point I've ever seen in a movie. But we're running over, so that's right. Well, I will say if you watch the extended version of the movie, it's not much better movie, but it makes for Batman v Superman. They actually edited out a lot of the things that make lex luthor's plot makes sense. There's all these explanations of like him paying the people to brand the brand people with the bat symbol and all that kind of stuff to make superman and Batman angry with each other that they just cut out of the movie and they left in the nightmare scene for justice league. You know that. Nobody as just let you know what's going on. Hey, it's hey. You're like, Whoa, because if you were, like what is that? But will explain in seven movies maybe, unless we make one more in which it's a whole thing gets canceled. It's a bad direction. You got to do it in the opposite direction. Yet payoffs and movies later on. You can't have a payoff in the first movie and it's like watch seven more movies to see how this pays like like, you know, like, like she's yeah, so they they to be fair to the DC universe. They they course corrected. So wonder woman wall it had a lot of serious stuff in it had that lighthearted this is a comic book tone to it. I will say one last thing and I'm winded. Apparently I haven't seen with DC and even marvel after after the Dark Knight Trilogy, which is all. They also botch the Doka squad so bad of the rebooty that instantly even marvel after the Dark Knight Trilogy. They started out at people liked this grounded approach. Let's start with iron man. He can build a suit, and then we go to the hulk. That's kind of science based. Well, I'm waiting for the hulk. Yep, was...

...before the incredible. We not the Ale. And then, you know, from there, they then they move after to iron man movies. They move into thor and even at that point they're like yeah, well, magic science, it's kind of just the same thing. Yeah, and then we're just going to ignore that. Later on we introduced Dr String and at that point people were too interested in it. Yeah, they did such a good job at movies one and two that there was just like then they introduced a talking raccoon. People loved it. They're like yeah, we can do whatever we want. That point are too so yeah. So that is the end of our show today. Thank you for for tuning in. Let us know what you think. What was your favorite marvel movie? You know, what did Marvel do right the DC did wrong? What do we leave out? We're you miss yeah, obviously, I think I would. I would say we need to go to explain yourself. I think we got into the that what I think. What do you guys disagree on? Yeah, so thanks for joining us. We'll be on here next week and looking forward to talking about some more movie topics. Yeah, movie topics. I think I would like to do a podcast on video video games. I guess let's see video games next, video games. But yeah, you can reach US twitter, at dearly debated. Dearly debated at GMAILCOM I want to shoot us an email. Greg, where can people find you? You can find me on Facebook, chapter one films, Oh and et chapter one films, Oh any you can also find me my on line, my website, chapter one films Dot Biz, and check our stuff out. Yeah, you can find me at Holy Golm hl why Joe Elliem like the POKEMON. All right, and you can find me at at comic exile on twitter and facebook and at Comic Exilcom if you want to hear me talk a little bit more about more the comic book side of things, and I'm definitely be doving into the mcu in more detail. They're in the future too. All right, all right, till next time.

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