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Dearly Debated
Dearly Debated

Episode 2 · 1 year ago

Episode 2 - And Another One

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

We're talking sequels and sagas! Greg is the worst pirate you've ever heard of and Nathanael wonders why, oh why didn't he take the blue pill! Introducing Jason the moderator, who does whatever a spider can!

What did you just say? Nothing, just a little dig. What did you see? Whatever? A black cat went past us, and then another that look just like it. How much like it was? It the same cat might have been. I'm not shore switch a pocket. What is it? Dj vue is usually a glitch in the matrix. It happens when they change something. Welcome to episode two of the dearly debated. I'm your host, Greg Return of the Prins, and I am alongside Nathaniel Red Pill Levinson. I don't even know what that means. sorrsly. Okay, we're gonna we're also joined hopefully buy some some much needed help. Jason is here with us today, hoping it given some help. But how has gone, Jason? It's going good. I am Jason, the much needed help. I was not told anything nickname. So it's good next because after, after the last episode, we took one look at him we were like, I think I'll all right. So today we have a really, really cool topic we're going to be talking. Wait, about first on this week in history. Maybe. Okay, so the following may have happened in history. In one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine, restoration work was completed on the last supper and was reopened to public viewing. The delays were blamed on cheeky artist attempting to insert subtle and acronisms, for example, several disciples talking on cell phones, Peter Wearing a roll x and John Dabbing the internal ports. Reprimanding the offenders fell into the hands of one Dan Brown, who was inspired to write the Da Vinci Code, saying if Jesus can be a DJ then it's not a stretch to say. He got married and moved to France. Never chained Chamberlain became Prime Minister of K Nineteen thirty seven again of this year. What? Well, I guess I should say what day it is. I guess it doesn't make a lost sense of context. Lece I say what they had left the audience. Yeah, it is may twenty eight, two thousand and twenty. So in nineteen thirty seven, on May Twenty eight. Never Neville Chamberlain was elected Prime Minister of the UK. When later asked about the invasion of Poland after the whole Hitler is totally cool, Dude forrefuffle, all I could say was I did not see that coming. In seventeen eighty eight, on May twenty eighth the federalist papers were published in book form. This notoriously led to the death of the chief offer author, Alexander Hamilton, who, who is chafed after the rights were at or acquired by paramount and and by after paramount acquired the rights and cast. Aaron burn the role of Hamilton, but only got the role after Washington's understudy resigned after seeing burn the streets down as luck wearing a cast after an unfortunate carriage incident. The understudy charitably offered for his lead role. This of course led to the use of the term break a leg, and you might get lucky when someone takes pity on you. You short and later to break a leg. Hamilton was so insensity challenge Brik to a duel and the rest is history. As he blowed out, Hamilton's last words were you bastards. I definitely look more like George Clooney. And that's what happened this week in history. So I had to call out what it's false and that I think it should be pretty obvious. Yeah, I mean, I don't I'm not great on history, but if you're ready, that went up in there for me. You're right. It wasn't George Clooney, he said. He actually said Clint ease, the break a light thing. That sounds pretty legit, though. You make that up a hundred percent. That was pretty good. Does pretty good recollective. People know that for you, because I don't even know where that that term comes from. Yes, it's all was actually on the Internet, so it's obviously completely true. Yeah, it's ready on the Internet. Therefore it's true. Yeah, all right. Well, after that amazing segment, we're going to get into our main topic. It's an exciting topic. Today we're going to be talking about sequels and saga's. Questions relating to sequels and Saga's we have some questions prepared. We're going to do our best stay on topic. Yeah, right after, after the wonderful fiasco that was last time, we decided we need a little bit more structure in our in our podcasting etiquette. So instead of just having a topic and some questions that we might get to so for instant. Greg, you had written down several questions for last time and we got through seven. You had, yeah, Greg, had written down seven questions and we got through one of them and it took us an hour. It's like and we had to stop out by to our thought like we can even complete it, which I mean, you know, I think there is some merit to having a longer conversation that we're going to try something a little bit more or PTI style. For those you don't know, Ptis a sport show where they just kind of rapid fire go through topics on a timer. So we're going to try to do that today. So we're going to try a format that will hopefully keep us on topic. It'll it'll stuff going and get it. Let us get right to the meat of it'll keep us on topic. So we're going to hand it over to Jason and Jason's going to going to get these questions prepare for us and he's going to start kind of laying it on us and hopefully push this thing along. All right, now that you want to start. All Right, okay. So so where do we leave off? I Wi should we jump back and we're so, Jason.

Basically what you guys are saying is last last episode you were talking about Star Wars and you're pacing was kind of like the last Jedi. This time you want to tell a little more rise of Skywalk yeah, I don't know how to respond to that. I don't make me. Yes, let's just go with yes. Yeah, are we trust you and not listen to the last episode yet? So Fair enough. All right. So, without further ado, Jason laid on us, my friend. All Right, so first question you guys provided to me so kindly is what is the best saga? Best Movie Saga? All Right, best movie saga. I don't know if it's cheating to say the Lord of the Rings. They were a book adaptation. Look out, a patient's fine, where as long as it's a movie form, okay, well then, I mean I'm going to go through the Lord of the Rings. I think the biggest thing about Sagas is if the code, if the stories cohere across movies, well then then it's exciting and it's entertaining and you can follow characters throughout movies or TV shows are entertaining and that you know. Those movies are unique in the fact that they were all filmed together. Yeah, well, and and additionally they're crazy long, but they still cut out so much for the books, and most of what the cutout is just fluff. Yeah, so they took all they took all this excellent stuff that they had in the in the trilogy side. I would say I would probably agree with you that that that's probably the best saga that's ever been made. I would put forward how to train your dragon, I think, as a great saga. I think all three movies are fantastic, both by themselves and as a part of this, this whole journey. I don't really like how it ended, HMM, but you know, I wasn't angry about it. It was just like, oh, that wasn't the end of I wanted. I wanted to everyone to have like a fairytale ending. Sure, them sucker like that, but I loved how to Training Dragon. Every single I thought was a great trilogy. Howard short is a music for that one, I think right now. I mean how it short is Lord of the Rings, but I'm pretty sure you've got yeah. So I would put forwards and you took Lord of Rings. I will put forward how to train your dragon as one of the best joy well, of course I think the original star wars trilogy, the original Trilogy, Star Wars Trilogy, or breaking that up into three different ones. You I think you could take them as a whole and I think you could take it as individual try allowed to take one through six, because I want to take that one. All right, yeah, I mean, yeah, you can take it by yeah, I'm going to go with how to train your dragon. Okay, I'll stick with the Lord of the Rings. I don't know if it's cheating. That their book adaptation, but that's those like the best cinema creations. I don't think it's plaining at their book adaptations. If that, they're damn good movies. You don't have to have read the book to appreciate the movies. Sure, John, how John Powell music for how to Trine your thanks, just great. All right, I think strong source materials what's going to make a strong saga anyway. So sure having a book wouldn't be cheating. Yeah, so anywhere right at the two minute marks. We're going to move on. So what would you guys in contrast as the worst saga sequel trilogy, the stores starlars. Okay, we're gonna put that one to the side. We only talked about why. That's an absolute dumpster fire. Yeah, I'll talk about it more in the future. Yes, that's a okay. So I'm sorry to think of a trilogy that was just really bad. I'm trying to think of one that was bad from start to finish, but you know, a lot of them aren't bad from starting to can I know on a twilight? I mean yeah, seen that. Yeah, and I just recently watched every single one of those, mainly because coronavirus. I really bored. Yeah, good, no, it's so basically what I told myself was like, all right, you just got to think. It's like some like teen TV show that you're watching where you're kind of like Oh, like, the acting is clearly horrible, like it's really just made for like middle school girls, but like there's at least characters that you can look at and kill a lot of time. And Man, it was even bad for that. Like it there was so many points in that's like even from like the first movie, where you're like why is this character doing that? Like you haven't told me anything about them to justify why they're behaving that way, like you haven't done any work at all. It's just it's just like hey, he's really cute, all right. Next thing you're right for you say something super in controversial. Boy, transform us. But the first one was good. Yeah, but the SAGA's so sorrow Su guys, garbage. It's kind of like the lamb before time. Yeah, I'm looking. See. The thing is, I've never I can't evaluate the lad before time sagas. I don't know which the first one, which was excellent. So one princess as a saga and it's not very good. anyways. What else is there? It's a deep it's does SMA, Princess, I reverends. First one's fantastic. Second to do not hold up. But I wouldn't say we're saga ever. Yeah, I'd say transformers. It's just it just keeps garbage upon garbage upon garbage. And the first movie wasn't that good. It wasn't good enough to hold up a saga, to say like, we'll talk about some other ones. I think it's a pretty common theme and we'll probably touch on this and later topics that for first ones tend to be pretty solid and yes, ones are bad. I just think the twilight is unique in the fact that it started already bad. was like, I mean that was really bad. Lives make see, I read the books and we'll talk about strong source material. That's like tissue paper source. The really it's I haven't read of it. I heard they were good. Also my audience. They're all were. They are fourteen year old girls. We're going on for a little bit. I'm going to get ahead and move you, guys, on to our next question, which is what...

...is the best sequel? Okay, this is this is a hard one for me. An answer best. He's sequel a toy story too. Honestly, see, I think that's my favorite toy story and I like all the toy stories. I haven't finished for to be honest, I watched half of it, but it was good. But all the toy stories are solid and I honestly think the second one is my favorite. I think it's I think it's it's it moves. All the characters move on and have different care like there's character arcs and there are callbacks to the first movie, but it doesn't stay in the first movie, unlike something like you're like Shrek to, which I would say is better than Shrek one, but the movies are so similar it makes not lots. Yeah, I mean I think a really difficult thing to find is one, just a movie that has a good sequel like like that's that's in it of itself is like, Oh, like a movie actually had a sequel that was pretty solid. But it's also super rare that it's like, oh, the beginning, like the first movie was kind of and second one was really good. I really because you have examples like star wars, where you have a new hope, which is amazing, and you have empire, which is arguably better and and you know maybe maybe on like the detail side, is a better movie, but it's hard to say like when you hope is still an amazing movie. Yeah, it's hard just to clearly say like, Oh, this is this is a better event. If I had to pick a sequel that I like better than the original, this may be weird just because I know the xmen hole, like that's just madness at there's a time travel and there's like there's like different universes and then you have deadpool, which is does everything off separate, like the x one through three, with and then the right screens likes. So if you take the first ones, x one, two three, I thought x two was the best movie in that in that series. Yea Far. I thought it was excellent and I did think that x one was good, but I didn't think it was like I could go back and just watch x two a bunch of times just because I think they develop some really cool new characters. I'm going to jump in here just because there's going I'm really surprised you guys didn't get into, and that's the Dark Knights. MMM, forgot about that. Yeah, Dark Knight is, I would still put such a good movie. No, Batman begins good. Dark Knight the best hands down, like what a great the thing is, the dark knights so good that I think about it as a standalone movie just as like an example of this is an excellent movie. I was actually about to bring that up. Yeah, I mean, but the thing is I'd still put that in the category of like that whole series is. Yeah, all three of those movies are excellent. The first one is, in my opinion. I mean I like I may have a stronger opinion on this, and I know it's not not the normal to think that. It's, you know, it's just as good as the other ones. I think dark knight is probably the best set of the three, but I still consider them all to be at a very high level. Hmm, right, or you said Ja. Yeah, that's good's call to call. I think. I think. I mean I'm biased, man, but I think. I think the toby McGuire Spider Man's the best spider man's I think. Okay, so we don't have to get into this my opinion. Let me give my opinion real quick. Toby McGuire was the best Peter Parker, Andrew, whatever his name is, artels under Garfield, was the best spider man. Tom Holland is the perfect marriage of both. All right, we'll touch on that future episodes. I will talk about that like the intersection Dain. Yeah, so moving on. Next question is what do you guys think was the worst sequel at all of all time? And since I know you also beinions, we're going to steer clear of star wars sequel. Truly. Yeah, I'm good. Okay. Well then I'm going to go again on controversial to Boon guire spiderman three so bad that it caused an instant reboot. And then, and then that got followed up with something that ended up being so bad it they had to give it back to marvel. So that was just so bad. And then I will also go to Matrix revolutions and Matrix no retarded, no, no, no, said. Okay, so let me explain that. Here's why I think that that's such a bad movie sequel. Is because those two movie sequels did not need to exist. But the Matrix thinks for a lot of sequel, a lot of sequel. But the marchers was like a perfectly good standalone movie there. Nobody needed anything else out of the Matrix. And the Matrix reloaded was like okay, but you gotta be revolutions was absolute poopy track. Think about think about episode four Star Wars. Right, you have a pretty complete storyline. Luca study was just going to make one movie, sure, but in heat makes it stop. But this is the same thing for that for the Matrix. He literally, yes, he he ends the movie by putting out his little voice call that says hey, if you're hearing this, yeah, it's an illiguous ending, but it doesn't need that. Doesn't need that. Doesn't mean it needed explanation. But if you are a fan of the Matrix, you for sure want more after you watch that. I don't think I did not saying that they're amazing movies of equals, but I'm saying if you just watch like the first matrix, you're like, oh my gosh, where does it go from here? Of course you say that. I don't know. I wouldn't put it up there with the worst sequels of all time. I think you were much closer with your first take, with all its fine when a see I think you may have hit it out of the park. I don't know if I can think of anything that bad. That that's that's the one I was I was going to bring up is that x one and two are great and then x three guards is is out of there. Really just been? Dark Phoenix did the exact same thing in a different way. I was going to say they made the same movie again and killed the franchise. You want to make it like kill a franchise, AD Phoenix and yeah, try to do dark feet. The...

...xmen cartoon, cheesy and ridiculous as it was, did a really good job with dark phoenix. Like how do you mess up that? Banks cartoon is to WED amazing. Spider man too, with Andrew Garfield, is second one was probably the worst. Well, that's the one with Genie Fox, right, Jimmie Fox being yeah, that one was. WHO's the problem with that one? Is Like I actually thought it was very entertaining as far as like the fight sequences. I remember watching in theaters and thinking, wow, this is like a ride, it's like super but I I remember sympathizing more with Jamie Fox and I think I didn't be like Hey, I'm kind of on your side. Spider man, like this guy's and that's all like. Well, move trying to run things back in and apparently we're gonna to talk about spider man in a future episode because strong opinions. They're yeah, there's a lot talk about. It's not a spider man. I have a lot to talk about. This better. Oh yeah, but so, and my next question was actually just matrix, which I think we've got that cover, but I feel like we should spend back around to Greg on we're sequel answers. Yeah, you just kind of been replying worst sequels. Okay, so I agreed with the spider man. I agreed with the x men before that, you stole it before I got it out there. I think there are a few examples of of just like there's really bad contrast, because the first ones were really good. I don't think the sequels were horrendous, like they were really bad, but in contrast the first one, for me, it was where they took the story. It was really bad. I would say the Jurassic Park and also they pirates of the Caribbeans, as it both rights, are both both examples of amazing first movies. You Watch the first Jurassic Park, that is one of my favorite movies of all time. Is Amazing. It's so well done on every level and literally from from that movie to the next is a huge, huge dropoff of to where you're kind of like the dinosaurs are carrying it along. I'm entertained enough. And then you get to the third one and you're like, oh my gosh, this is at like it's unwatchable, and then you're the new ones that they didn't learn their lash. And the same thing with with pirates the Caribbean. I would say the pirates cab be in is a little, little more of a trickle off where it starts really, really high. The first parts Caribbean is an amazing movie and the second one gets a little crazy and Funky, but I still watchable to me, and the third ones like Oh, it's about time we ride this thing up and really glad made last one and then they made some learners really bad. So I would go with those two just because I was so disappointed because I love the first ones. HMM, all right. Well, my next three topics were Matrix, Jurassic Park and pirates of the Caribbean. So you guys got anything else to say on any of that? So the Matrix, just the Matrix. Let me let me, yeah, let me stork aback to the Matrix just just briefly. So, so one of the things, like the whole point of the second movie was there was a prophecy that treaty was spoil alert for what? When that movie come out seventeen years ago? Your spoiler. Spoiler alert. There's the whole the whole movies about Neil trying to fight the prophecy that trinity is going to die. That's the entire point of the entire movie is He's trying to save trinity's life. He does it. He literally pulls a bullet out of her chest, which don't know how that reverses the fact that you were shot in the chest, but somehow that that saves her. And the third movie she just dies and like okay, so why did you make this? Why did you give me this whole if they had just gone from one to three, I wouldn't had a problem with trinity to die. But when you spend an entire movie being like we need to save trinity and then she just dies like that for no reason, it wasn't even like a meaningful death. Yeah, but it means terrible and it's also the ending of the whole ending of the really wonky Jesus Metaphor just didn't work for me. Well. But the thing is like so you have the second movie and and they're making a fourth one. So then like what the hell, guys, we need but the second one, the bigger thing that they were getting at was the contrast between the Oracle, who is prophesying things that are, you know, quote unquote, destiny. Sure, and you have the father of the Matrix, who's the architect. was just like it's all about who's literally just saying there is there's a there's a reaction. Need every action and but it does create a pretty like I've gone back and I've watched that movie and I've and I still watch that like that that scene where he talks the architect, and I'm like Huh, like I didn't think about it like that, and it brings Ford explained that Matrix stuff. But then you got like ghosts, got ghost twins in this one guy who's like you can only killed him with silver. Like, where the hell did this all come from? And well, why do you do not explain it's that it's definitely a world that has a whole lot of like outs, right, like you can kind of just be like, Oh, you're perus in the major's Communeah, right, it's but I think they do a decent job at keeping it concise. To my opinion, I don't think the story falls apart at all. I think that the movies aren't as entertaining to me it was. The more time they spend out of the Matrix, the worst it. God, it was just but that's this, but that's an entertainment thing, like you want to spend time in the Matrix because it's inters interesting. I wouldn't say it was like those are those are like those are just terrible moves. I was just so disappointed at the end of the third one. I it was a big one. That was one I was looking forward to so much. where my expectations and the actual reality? You weren't going nuts for the fight scene. It got you go weaving man stir and nerdy. It got to say me okaybs eat itself. It DB DBS itself to death. Drassic Park. Okay. So when I watched the rest girl top extress...

...part. We gotta let Jason Introduce Them. OPANIEL, all right, sorry, all right, we're working progress. alievable. So when I when I watched Jurassic world, literally my like my one thought during during the okay, it wasn't great. So it was bad. It was bad, it was really and I was like, first of all, this whole Indosource ress things is, first of all, okay, the whole premise of the indosource recks. Like people got bored with dinosaur is indominous rule. Think people aren't bored with regular zoos. And you're trying to tell me a crazy dinosaur island is no, you're wrong. They're just like your entire premise. It is but is wrong. I mean the stupe like the more absurd thing, I think, is that you just like you really can't come up with a creative idea given dinosaur words, like like you have dinosaurs now that have already been introduced into existence by a previous amazing movie. Right, so that's that's the gold mine you're dealing with. And literally, you can't come up with anything creative other than we're going to create another park. And it's not like you couldn't have a whole movie about hunting dinosaurs. You could have a whole movie about dinosaurs that have like gotten into the city and they're eating people. And other hand, it's just it's just like here's the do some movie that would have been good. Dinosaurs are pets, but the callers that keep their urges under control. Someone hacks them so they're start killing their owners. That's way too close to the last one, where they can control them, where it's like hey, he's got a laser on his head. I was gonna say, you know, they did overcome that problem, you know, and the first movie they new trilogy. They introduced a genetically altered dinosaur's going to kill everybody and escapes. In the second movie they introduced a genetically after dinosaurs going to kill everybody and escapes, but they can control it. You know, they're making progress. And then now we can hear it. It's a humans do right, because when girls look fake the whole time, and then the thing that the thing that like to okay, I was pretty taken out of the movie. The thing that sealed the deal for me was like this trash movie. I've never watching this again, was when the dinosaurs are scaping and the main female lead, who was just like plank of would the whole time, totally Agull, calm playing. He's escaping from a dinosaur in high heel printing and high heels and literally, in my brain, I'm about to get a little vulgar, I was like not, you did. I just like that. That was the only thing. I just like no, I've done with this movie. It's I think it turned into a one person who died horrifically did not deserve it. Well, it turned into a monster movie really quickly, where the original drestic part isn't it's a really well told story that has dinosaurs in it, as opposed to a story that only exists to show dinosaurs. For this one, it was like the end of in the end of the first one was let's have the t rex fight in Dominican rex stomach, an the Meican rexy, and then the scond one was let's have the let's have the velocer after come back and fight him, and and that was what the whole movie was for. Or didn't get also getting cut off. I was gonna say, yeah, did you guys have any more thoughts on that? Really quickly, really quickly, and this is not a problem necessarily with drastic part. This is kind of a whole thing. Like there I was like, Oh, we need to make this sort of weapon. What is wrong with guns? Did Gun stop working? Donosaurs are more punicient working. Like, are you an idiot? You can just shoot a dinosaur right, dinosaurs lived before bullets. They did not evolve to have super bulletproof skin. Shoot a dinosaur dies. Shoot a person, it dies. Guns are fine, all right, PAP US on track, Jason, I mean, but then you can mount the guns on the dinosaur. Okay, that's gonna ask. Yeah, but that's totally different from saying anyways, we're moving on, all right, so let's certainly do that in far cry circling back to pirates of the Caribbean. Any other thoughts on pirates? Man, Oh man, that I'm getting sad. I really like the first one, the first parts of the Caribbean. Here's the always say, what do you expect from a series that was built off of a ride and Disney part no, but like you can't say like that because the first one was good, right, like the first one was so good, like you developed characters that were amazing. How much can you actually squeeze out of that? It's pirates, got it. Yeah, it's like corky pirates on the ocean. It is that are hilarious. Thing is they lent too far. They went too hard into the supernatural side and not hard enough on the actual pirate side. It became like a supernatural thing, yeah, with like with a pirate background, instead of a pirate thing with some supernatural stuff in the and that's that happened to be there. Yeah, and that's that's that's my whole point on it being really a really a poor sequel, because you had that in the first one and you like, and that's fine, like to have a little bit of like hey, there's like there's a curse, and because, I mean, like that's part of that's part of like pirates, right, like you know, they believe in curses. There's all these weird, you know undertones of pirates where it's like you can't do this or you can do that, and so, yeah, and so there's this like there's this cursed treasure, quote unquote, and the next movies, like, all right, we had success with the first one. Let's try to recreate it in different way now, and now he's count instead of skeletons, they turn into fish and it. It didn't like yeah, that was like you did the same thing but worse. Yeah, it was. It's a new type of undead pirate. Yeah, movie. Yeah, and, and I mean on then the whole Calypso like, Oh, this big woman just turned the Ash. Yeah, he is. That a mead when she'd got, when she grew into a giant and then burst into crabs. I was like, I was watching compleaters on my...

...you don't. Have you not seen this? John Bony and it what you didn't hear? If you turn the volume up, you can see as it kind of happens. You can just hear act. It's all right. Thinking in the background. You heard the song shining for Moana. That was before dining. It was not before Mr Krabs. Great Move Left. Talk about talk about Morana and the movie cocoa. Come. Oh, yeah, we do Pixar episode. Yeah, fixar definitely needs to come up. So we kind of touched on some of this already. But what's going through it on a little more detail. What makes or breaks a sequel or a saga for you can start with what makes it for you. So what makes a good saga? I think the best, the thing that creates a really good saga is planning on making us up. I mean and and you can feel like and I'm not I'M gonna force myself not go back to star wars the sequels. But when you make a movie that is intended on being a saga, you can like your character arcs and the overall theme of the movie isn't meant to just end with that movie right. Like. So if you watch the first Lord of the Rings, you'd beat. You'd be like wow, this is a really interesting movie. Why aren't there more? And like if that was just it, you'd be like this doesn't make any sense and he didn't get the ring to order right, and like they'll because the purpose of the movie stretches across three films. And so when you make a movie that that's planning on making sequels, you have room for your characters to maybe in one movie they're a little bit of a merry sue and they just kind I do everything right, but you're planning on making them like kind of be a screw up in the next movie, to learn a lot and then to ultimately reach their goal or, like, their pinnacle as a character. So I think what makes a good seek, a good trilogy is planning characters out through multiple movies and having their arcs stretch along multiple movies and have things that you mentioned in earlier movies actually followed through on on later movies. It's not that hard. I would say. You don't even necessarily need to have an arc that spans across the entire saga, although you know it. You know I feel like some of that is is necessary to make it a saga and not just a sequel. But to me what makes a good sequel versus a bad sequel is you have the same characters experiencing different trials, having different growths and you know you're learning more that you didn't learn the first movie. What makes a bad sequel as when you could say, like how was that different from the first movie, other than the setting, which might sound like well, you know, the setting was the same. But what really makes you bad sequel for me, like ink man to or the comedy sequels, I think are the worst offenders of this because they had one good comedy movie that was really funny, that everyone loved, that was supermetic. Everyone was quoting it all the time, and then make a second one and it's exactly the same as the first one and and you're like that that wasn't as good as the first one, because I've already seen all this. So it's just a bad movie. Now it and the jokes that were funny become unfunny. I think it you can kind of had have a corollary in Kunfu panda. I'll bring up comfu panda. KUNFU panda. All three movies are good, but none of them do anything that's significantly different from the other two. Iron man one, two and three. They do different things, they have different villains, but the ARCS are incredibly similar for all three. So the first one is great and the second two just fall flat for me because he's not really Tony Stark is not really growing in any meat. Like a second one. He has closure with his dad and the throwing music. We said we were going to mention that by him SEU man. He had a back off that. You're right, but but I takes developed inside movies. I'm taking that chunk less. Actually said that on the air. So yeah, I can't actually mention that. So you on a segue and off of that. In contrast, while we since we open the M Seu thing, I would say, like you were talking about a movie where you've got a character that's kind of a merry sooth and you get some character development that things change and then it just keeps going. I think Captain America's trilogy is a good example that. The first movie a lot of people didn't like it because he was just this guy that was he was always doing the right thing. He was kind of a boring character and you were able to develop that and establish that. And then avengers winter soldier, you take him out of his, you know, World War Two setting, dump them into the modern world and that's what makes him interesting. Yeah, I agree, because it because in the first one, right, I liked the first one. I thought the first one was great. It, you know, establishes the character. It shows you this is who he is and this is what he's about in one thousand nine hundred and forty five World War Two era, and then you pull him into the modern role, like he said, and when are soldier in the other things happened. He realizes I could. You know, if I'm trying to hold onto my values, I have to operates differently in the respects, because it's no longer Oh, the government is is you know, like in World War II you could say, Oh, the government's legitimately fighting a good fight here against the Nazis. Now it's all the government's doing some shady stuff. I don't know if I'm always in agreement with the government anymore. Right, I'm not a soldier anymore, so I yeah, I would say captain America, I think, had had excellent character growth over multiple movies that had differing plots. He wasn't facing the same challenges and he grew through all three and, of...

...course, all the other there's a lot of day see. Let's let's curt quarterback on that real quick before we get lost moving right. And I did want to follow up on one thing. You were talking about the Lord of the rings and how it's good sequel and how at the end of the first movie you'd be like it wouldn't make any sense because you be leaving it off, and the reason for that is it was made of three books that were never supposed to be three books. They were just one story. Right, so that Lord of the rings almost should just be one super long list. So know, I thought of another worst sequel, but as in his fault kill bill volume two. So you know the story behind the kill bills? Sure, so, so. So Tarantino shot it as one film and studio came back and so this is too long, you have to break it up into two and he's like fine, so I just chopped it up a chronologically. All the good stuff in the first movie. So the first movies awesome and the second one is just like it was so boring. So she's got a kill ust to five people. She gets four of them in the first movie or three of them the first movie, and so they didn't think it ended the second Mobe is how weird? News fast, all right, it's with the next three dayson. Okay. So so I have a question, and you said put the bottle back on the mcu stuff, but it's better. Really great question. In the initial when we were in originally talked about this and it's how do you guys think the mcu, having a shared cohesive universe, has affected saga movies since that started? I would say the mcu is somewhat unique and what they've been able to do, and other companies attempting to do it have not seen success because they didn't understand how it works. Because if you look at the movies, they are more or less self contained. You can watch the Captain America trilogy, you can watch the iron man trilogy, you can watch the thor trilogy, you can watch all those by themselves and enjoy them and and you won't have lost too much if you haven't seen the rest of it. It does become more cohesive when you watch all of it, but they mostly because of having to pay salaries, they've kind of kept the the movies as individual entities. Yet they obviously have the avengers crossovers, but those, again are mostly self contained and I would say to watch end game, the only movie you have to watch is infinity war. It's and it's not. It's not like like. This is kind of why we've kept them out a little bit of these the sequel conversation. But I think a big thing that they're doing is they're kind of moving into what the TV show world does, where we're like, think about game of thrones, give me thrones. At a really good job of this. where it developed characters. It's separated these characters, the characters developed on their own and then they get brought back together and the excitement there is that you've got. You've been following all these characters separately, almost on their own story lines, and you're really excited to see what happens when they meet each other, because it's not like a typical sequel where it's just like all the characters go and do this, all the characters go and do that, the next chapter is this. When you when the mcu broke into it, it started looking like, Hey, this is one guy doing one thing, this is another guy doing another thing. Your imagination as a viewer is already like, man, what are these guys meet? What a Batman met Superman? What would that look like? And then the movie has and does that and and they fuse them together and I just think that the mcu doesn't necessarily concern itself with like, with forcing itself to have to continue a story. It can make a completely new one and then just just feed the audience what they want, which is to see these these two story lines converge. Yeah, it has it. They've had a deliberately lighthand on Meta narrative and they've used it basically as a teaser to say, Oh, you gotta Watch this movie, You gotta Watch this movie with right, because it's just going to be like little snippets in there that as they're going to feed into like it's a little insidious, but at the same time it's like if they didn't do such a good darn good job, it wasn't. So I wasn't. Well, there's so good. You be like you corporate whres, but I mean they are. But yeah, I mean I do too, but hey, it works. I get my money. So all right. So, just really quickly, I was thinking about a couple Sagas we didn't get into. Maybe gets your hot takes on them. Yeah, the Indiana Jones Saga. Oh, first three are all excellent. Fourth one is a hot pilot who that didn't actually happen where? I'm gonna you know if I wish you to say it didn't happen, if I wish upon a star. Hey, there are three Indiana Jones movies. It's my final answer. I okay, I'm a huge Indiana Jones Fan. I like the original, I think, quite a bit better than the next. To See. It's funny because Temple of Doom was the first one I ever saw, so that's the one I like the most. So it's weird. As a kid I remember watching them and I just remember all the entertaining parts that I really, really liked, thinking, Oh man, what movies are those in? And they just kept being in the first one I'm like, Oh, way, this one, that the first one. Well, I go, but this one it's friticulous. But come on, that's fun. If it no, I mean like they're fine, like I think they do a good job at keeping like the same tone throughout all three movies. It doesn't feel like it's done by a different hand or anything. But...

...in my opinion the first is stands out quite a bit. Yeah, I think you could argue and John, but I feel like you could argue anyway on the the original trilogy. But I think we can all agree the crystal skull was hey, man, man fiction. I like. What's his face? WHO's the kid in that one little box? Chi La buff, I think. Good actor, man chat. That's good. He's a good actor that he's getting put in terrible movies. It's not I could get on by as ball that. Yeah, so it's interesting. So you said second movie is your favorite. Temple will dooms your favorite. Raiders is your favorites of all. Start. Their movie is actually my favorite. I really and I actually I did not think that the fourth one was as big of a dumpster fires everybody said it was pretty bad. I mean Shylott but joying with monkeys and keeps up with cars in that movie. It's just amazing now, but I did enjoy it. I didn't think the aliens completely destroyed it, but it was, I thought, supernatural stuff. First ones also, you realize they killed that entire town, like everyone in that town dis dead, like yeah, whoops, it was mentioned. I like went ahead and that mentioned for the worst. Yeah, it could be up there with the worst. Clever. Yeah, that might be. That might be one to work, just because it was also done. It was so abrupt. It was like you have this original trilogy that's like it's kind of like timeless. It's like there're a classic. It's almost like if you just randomly redid but like like back to the future and just made one movie. It was. It was terrible. Think you're like, let's just pretended they made fourth Indian Jones and they're just how can do this? This is outrageous. It's unfair. It's okay, the fifth one is still in development. You know, it's all. It's been an I just like you're I don't understand why they're coming out with a matrix for and white's come out the same time as John Wick three. Now can we get three is already out? You're there. My jolic for is gonna be a real big sidebar. If you're y'all ever see, please be my, always be my. Maybe it's like a Netflix Wrong Tom Oh did have? Is that the one with him in the Greens on all light with that girl? It's so. It's the best Keyanu playing and it playing in the saggerated KANU that you'll ever see, the only ever plays Keanu. Read. Well, we'll have to always to watch that, but so I'm looking. So, speaking of Keanu, I actually have the correct answer for the worst sequel of all time. And we recently watched it together and it was bill and Ted. Jeez, that was rough, because bill and Ted one is is legit really fun. It's a fun, stupid movie, but I loved it. It's like you don't know to I was just like, I was laughing out loud. Villain dead too? was hard to guessed it was, it was. It was pretty painful. Yeah, I did not enjoy bill and tittoos like that. Was Not a good movie. I kind of it had I kind of blocked that from my memory, but yeah, that was that was a rough movie. Movies. Yeah, wow, we got you guys some bad well, I just went through rest of the development and season one through three. I was laughing out loud and like season for us, just in pain looks trying to get to be end of the problem. Is there too many teas shows? Yeah, now what what we could do? We got what we got our ten minute wrap up. Yeah, it was. I was going to throw out Harry Potter Franchise, if you guys want to comment on that. I thought the Harry Potter I thought the movies were good. Yeah, I think. I think the Harry Potter movies. I remember at the time. So so I watched before for we freaking cut me off. No, I watched the first looks at the first two Harry Potter's are done by the same director. They had the same guy playing dumbledore and it is John Williams or Hans Zimmer. That does Oh, shoot, one of the two it does that is the does the music. All three of those things change for the next movies. At the time it killed it for me. I was like I was like the third movie is just horrendous. It's so bad, because I was so upset that they change like the whole look at the Dumbledore died, so it's their fault, but he says corpse. Fack, he's pretty much a corpse in that first okay, he was definitely better dumbledore than the guy they all was too high energy. Yeah, like well, I mean it literally just seemed like he's about to die. Dumbledore asked calmly. I mean, okay, so I'll just say that now at this point. I I actually really enjoy all of them. I think they're all done really well. I think, I mean it's in a it's pretty amazing that you took three, I mean more than three, actors. Honestly, it's all the actors except for Dead Dumbledore, and you extended them through eight movies and like a lot of them started as young, little kids and by the end of their adults and it's it was pretty interesting and not a lot of movies give you that. Yeah, and so two things I'll say about Harry Potter first. I Love Them. I think the great movies. We definitely have them to blame for the splitting of movies into two parts and they change the ending of seven in a way that was dumb and needless. So I'M gonna get real nerdy for a second. In the movie Harry breaks the elder one and throws it off a bridge. Right in the books he buries it in Dumbledore's grave and says when I die of natural causes, it'll break the first of the elder one, which is a...

...way better ending. And why could you not do that? They had dumbledore's grade and the bearing Dumbledore, so I don't know why they changed it was stupid and pointless and I hated it. But I still like to make sure sand sand all right. I think this question will be really quick. Final question. In this age where we are going back, we're looking at movie saga's good. Movie Saga's like Indiana Jones like well, it's debatable on the Matrix side of things for you guys, but we're we're reviving them. You know, we talked about Jurassic World a little bit, aren't you? Are there any that you think of actually pulled off Reviv franchise and spy there any they tider man pulled up providing the franchise after the second time out. It doesn't count. If you that that's a story make. Okay, okay, said. I mean how many Uncle Ben's? There have been Jeez dies every time, or Guystu? I can't. I my brains going blank right now. I think trying to think of movies that know there have been dead for like ten, for ten, twenty years, and then they brought that brought back. There have been. Yeah, I think ry road was amazing. Okay, but the thing is, Mad Max is also. Wasn't that also a remaker? That was kind of a soft reboot. That was the first thing I thought, because Mad Max is on. I love that movie and the original ones are just are silly, almost like I thought you owed was was like a soft reboot, like it's it's not the same if you call that. If you call that like a a yeah, if you call it a reboot, then excellent. He called a remake, which I think it kind of is. I mean I I'd have to go back to the originals. I have to look at the chronology. I get the float right humor. George could be good. You guys know it's going to be another Jurassic world. Of course. Yeah, it made too much money. What seriously, go get out. What to have you on next? He also hates cocoa, so get out, but you like Mojuana, so you can stay, so get out. So yeah, you want to talk about a little bit, talk about a really good, you know, contrast between having good source material and not having good source material keeping almost everything else the same. You have the Harry Potter movies based on the books. I thought when you had fantastic beasts and where to find them niced on a fictional book, fictional town. They date that that fantastic Pasces in print. It's like ten pages long. Yeah, that's in Britain. I do I do remember. This is a true story. So I watched fantastic pace. I I just kind of thought it was like okay, like it's kind of just suckling off of like the fame of like Harry Potter and like it was all right. It was weird that they were all the SAC like hey, I'm actually Johnny Depp, and it was it was kind of odd. But then I went to go watch the next one and I saw it had a twenty six percent on like either Meta credit rotten tomatoes. I don't even know if it was twenty six percent and might have been in the teens. And I was like, I couldn't that bad. I couldn't even reach for to hit play. Was it that bad? I mean no, I never watched it. It wasn't like it was part two of a five movie side. Yeah, it was great. It was pretty generic, but there were some interesting thing that happened and it wasn't. I didn't look at it and say this is a bad it wasn't. It was no last Jedi. So let's move on, all right. And same thing. Lord of the Rings, Hobbit, Hobbit. Thing about the Hobbit is, first of all, again source material is a great book. Yeah, but it's not that long. And second of all, you could when you watch the Lord Rings, you can feel the love that went into making that. It was really a Labor, Labor of love. Was not the same with the hobbit. The first thing I've noticed was when they're their first encounter with the GOBLINS, you're like, you couldn't even bother to make the CGI goblins look different from each other. They're all identical. Well, I think the biggest problem is the contrast there, because if that movie comes out right, if the hobbit comes out, you'd never seen the Lord of the Rings, you might think like it's steps, like it's an you like, I think of finally, like why is this three movie? Yeah, like, I agree with that. It did get a little long and you're in like I can't even follow the storyline. I'm just like, what movie was that one from? They added a lot of nonsense in there with a kate from lost. Yeah, let like, let they throw Lego lost, which there. Well, if they got a K first lost in there and in the problem lost, I know that'll that is she's the one that play. She plays the ELP that falls in love with the door. Was that in the book? I don't think that's in the book. Yeah, so sated the Wasp and the MT yeah, that's true. Um, but I think the problem is you watched that after watching the greatest feat in cinema history, which is the original or the rings, and so you're like, Huh, it's absolutely Lee terrible. It is in one movie with the same amount of love given to Lord the Rings and would have been good. Yeah, it. Just make it one movie and it can be like Hey, this is a nice little ego. Oh Yeah, sure, then he dies in the first five it's the next episode. Like, seriously, all that build up and then you cliffhangered me and then he's dead. I will say that that that is a much harder one to do than the little than the Lord of the Rings. Oh yeah, the HOBBA has a lot of funny like like those in the actual book. The dwarves are singing constantly, they've all got like purple and Orange and green beards and like that's just hard, like it's hard to translate that into a real movie, as opposed to Lord of the Rings, is seems a little more mature and a little less. Yeah, you know. Yeah, the Hobbit was intended to be...

...a quick, right easy read for kids. So just a little bit of time to wrap up here. Is there anything else you guys wanted to go back over? This should probably be its own topic, but I want to just like real quick TV seriuse you brought up game of thrones. Yeah, by all accounts I had a really bad ending. I use that as an example. I didn't want to get into games when I just like, real quick, get into a TV series that had really good endings, that had really bad and they's just really briefly. Okay. Well, have another a few so shows that I hated the endings. Well, that's okay. So I was just talking about this with a friend where when you have a TV show that has a set ending, let's give it how I met your mother an example. So how I met your mother. Has they said ending? It's how he meets his mother. Sure, ultimately that's going to be the end of the show. Sure, and and you know it's going hand budgets so horribly well. But the problem is that everybody's expecting this to be a certain way and when you do it in a way that they didn't like, you like, it's almost impossible to please people. And I'm not saying I totally get that. I'm not defending them at all because I think they did a really lazy job of it, but I'm but I'm going to contrast that with the office, where you have a show that has really no purpose and it can end however the hell it wants to end. And so it did a really good job, in my opinion, of ending. Yeah, I thought parts and wreck had a very good ending. Ye, I was gonna say out argue. The office had like three different really good ending stretches throughout it. You Got Jim and Pam's wedding, when Michael Leaves and then the actual end of the show, of which they could have kept it right there and I would have been good. Yeah. So, so let me just really quickly. One show that I love that had a great ending. One show that I love, the head a terrible ending. Parts in wreck, I thought a fantastic againdic. They did like a future episode where they kind of implied a lot of things that you wanted to happen, but they didn't not write state it. They basically imply that Leslie know, becomes President or is on her way to becoming president, and everybody has you know, they leave checking like here's where everybody moved on to two good things, Battle Start Galactica, which was amazing and had a crazy good finalogy. Either of these write up. I'll spoil it for you, right up until the last ending, where it was just like, why didn't you just end on the last episode? Because they like go and they colonize the new planet and that's where they should have ended, but then they had to have this whole thing where it's like, Oh, and you know, here are the natives and and one of the half cylon babies ended up being J mitochondrial eve. And it goes into the future and the cylon Angel People are which was never explained. I never understood who there were. Are there in a like it's happening again. The silence going to reverble, like, what the hell was that? Even you can't end on like a moral thing. That wasn't the point of the whole show. So an interesting thing about that is that a star galactors announced a sequel set in the same universe that's going to be coming out in the near future. seriously. And then let's say these. So either of you guys watched? You talked about parks and reck. Did y'all watch the Comeback Reunion? Yeah, that was basically just a zero virus. That was bouncement. That was fun. It was fun. We'll save TV shows for an and for really. Yeah, I think TV shows can be there all, but I'm nothing about endings. That were all right. Well, I think that was a much more concise episode. Better. All right. So now now I want to give just a brief time. If there's anything that anyone said and you want to call them out, we're going to have a little thing that we're going to we're gonna end with a little thing I'm gonna call explain yourself. Explain Yourself. So if anyone said something you thought was controversial, put them on the spot. It's controversial. Like you had you you you take Umbridge, and we didn't have time to get into it. I feel like you did say something that I was kind of like really, I think you said, oh, we're sequels. Ever, as the Matrix, I thought that was pretty appalling, just because and not because I don't agree that the first matrix is clearly better than the second too. I just think there are way more examples of horrible. Well, and we did get into it, like the Crystal Skull and yeah, I also think that the the addition of cider man the original series really changed a lot, because we're all like, oh, really good movies. It's just when I think of a I guess I could say maybe not worse sequel ever, but you know, the ones that disappointed me the most because I really, really like the original. I'm still I don't think and then, and then the set will see. The thing is the second one. I was still on board, even though people like this is terrible. I was so important. Then I saw matrix revolution. I was like, that was a terrible and it made the second one worst. For we'll see if the fourth one revives it. Go. I'm that is basically the entirety of our media existence. Now let's really let's see if this new movie can revive our dead friends. Yeah, let's see. Let's see if you can say can rescue our dead franchise. Explain and they they do like parallel universes. I'm a loser. Maybe it'll do a star wars did and it'll just make the the sequel and and the third one seemed really, really good. No, that's one thing I'm going to I'm going to call you out on. So you talked about the what makes it breaks a trilogy being not having a plan. Yeah, well, Lucas didn't think new hope was going to get sequels. Okay, I thoughtt about that too. Well, I but I did explain why that usually is...

...the case. I think that that's that's that's impressive. Now, see, here's the thing. Let me let me try to I don't disagree with you, okay, but I think you phrased it in a way that that could be I don't think you phrases the best way you could, sure, because I don't Lucas had no idea new hope was going to take off like it did. But then when he went to craft the sequel wills, he did it very carefully and deliberately. Right were as here does. It was just like, Hey, you make a movie here, you make a movie here, don't move. I don't think they come here. I don't know. We're stalt toys. I don't think that that points to Oh, look, that can be done and that's a good way to do it. I think that points more towards that. was just really impressive that he was able to pull that off because, yeah, that is just I still stand by what I said. Oh, no, no, how do you make a very eerie so I don't even point that to it as an exception and things to develop over multiple movies. I think it's so impressive that Lucas can make movies that you can enjoy by themselves, but you can also watch in a hole across six movies and really enjoy them and and be like these are really fun on their own individually, and I can also enjoy them as a whole because their cohere I'm going to throw the counterpoint. He did plan one, two and three from the beginning and it's an inferior trilogy to the original. I don't think it's an inferior trilogy, but will say that no time. Greg I feel like you're being you're just alienating part part of our audience here. They're not just six star wars movies. No, there are just our seven, seven becode one. Yeah, it's beautiful. I am so sorry, Jason. Thank you for calling me out. Maybe even seven and a half a right, all right, so let's so let's end with this. I'm going to bring it back to star wars. Rank. We always will. We always will. We always said we. We's gonna have to make that a thing. Like we always end with something about Star Wars. How many we have? No, no, this is fast, as fast, as fast as fastest. Is it? No, here it is the mail explination given. Okay, no rhymer reason. You're not allowed to explain yourself. List the nine movies in the main saga, from worst to best. Okay, the last Jedi, rise of Skywalker, greed, the force awakens and now gets hard's getting the good ones. Clone wars, episode two, a new hope, episode four. I'M gonna go empire, episode five, I'M gonna go episode three, the episode one and to menace, and then episode six. All right, I just want to, you know, in the explain yourself. Empire. That low? Yeah, maybe, but we're not explaining this. We're moving on right. So I would go worst is last Jedi. I think it's an argument here. Would you agree with that? Yeah, where's this? Last Jedi? Then rise of Skywalker, then force awakens. I think it's pretty uncontroversial. Yeah, then I'm going to go, and here's where you, and I would sure we will, can get into this. And now keep in mind, once ipposed to those three, the quality gap is huge. No explaining. Let's go. I would say episode two, Clone Wars, episode three, revenge of the fifth, episode one, Phantom Menace. Then, honestly, episode four, episode no, episode five, episode four, episode six. Okay, all right, all right, well, that's let me, let me clarify that. It's the episode six. No, that's an it is not specialized. Jason, you got to give your your ten. You're listening, all right, so I'm just gonna same first three and then I would say I would go episode two, episode one, episode three, no, yeah, episode three, and then, yeah, five, four. That point. Okay. Okay. Well, thanks for joining us for this episode. Yeah, if you disagreed with anything we said, you know you can send us an angry email or tweet. We are on twitter at dearly debated and we are also at dearly debated at gmailcom. So if you want to contact us, if you think of a topic you want us to cover, or if you just think we're hacks and you want to yell at us, that's great too. Yeah, so this is also red pill the Matrix. Now. Well, I am Gregg, return of the PRINS, signing off. Daniel Davy, Joel he's Levinson. The next time.

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