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Dearly Debated
Dearly Debated

Episode 2 · 1 year ago

Episode 2 - And Another One

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

We're talking sequels and sagas! Greg is the worst pirate you've ever heard of and Nathanael wonders why, oh why didn't he take the blue pill! Introducing Jason the moderator, who does whatever a spider can!

What did you just say? Nothing, just a little dig. What did you see? Whatever? A blackcat went past us, and then another that look just like it. Howmuch like it was? It the same cat might have been. I'm notshore switch a pocket. What is it? Dj vue is usually a glitch inthe matrix. It happens when they change something. Welcome to episode twoof the dearly debated. I'm your host, Greg Return of the Prins, andI am alongside Nathaniel Red Pill Levinson. I don't even know what that means. sorrsly. Okay, we're gonna we're also joined hopefully buy some somemuch needed help. Jason is here with us today, hoping it given somehelp. But how has gone, Jason? It's going good. I am Jason, the much needed help. I was not told anything nickname. Soit's good next because after, after the last episode, we took one lookat him we were like, I think I'll all right. So today wehave a really, really cool topic we're going to be talking. Wait,about first on this week in history. Maybe. Okay, so the followingmay have happened in history. In one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine,restoration work was completed on the last supper and was reopened to public viewing.The delays were blamed on cheeky artist attempting to insert subtle and acronisms, forexample, several disciples talking on cell phones, Peter Wearing a roll x and JohnDabbing the internal ports. Reprimanding the offenders fell into the hands of oneDan Brown, who was inspired to write the Da Vinci Code, saying ifJesus can be a DJ then it's not a stretch to say. He gotmarried and moved to France. Never chained Chamberlain became Prime Minister of K Nineteenthirty seven again of this year. What? Well, I guess I should saywhat day it is. I guess it doesn't make a lost sense ofcontext. Lece I say what they had left the audience. Yeah, itis may twenty eight, two thousand and twenty. So in nineteen thirty seven, on May Twenty eight. Never Neville Chamberlain was elected Prime Minister of theUK. When later asked about the invasion of Poland after the whole Hitler istotally cool, Dude forrefuffle, all I could say was I did not seethat coming. In seventeen eighty eight, on May twenty eighth the federalist paperswere published in book form. This notoriously led to the death of the chiefoffer author, Alexander Hamilton, who, who is chafed after the rights wereat or acquired by paramount and and by after paramount acquired the rights and cast. Aaron burn the role of Hamilton, but only got the role after Washington'sunderstudy resigned after seeing burn the streets down as luck wearing a cast after anunfortunate carriage incident. The understudy charitably offered for his lead role. This ofcourse led to the use of the term break a leg, and you mightget lucky when someone takes pity on you. You short and later to break aleg. Hamilton was so insensity challenge Brik to a duel and the restis history. As he blowed out, Hamilton's last words were you bastards.I definitely look more like George Clooney. And that's what happened this week inhistory. So I had to call out what it's false and that I thinkit should be pretty obvious. Yeah, I mean, I don't I'm notgreat on history, but if you're ready, that went up in there for me. You're right. It wasn't George Clooney, he said. He actuallysaid Clint ease, the break a light thing. That sounds pretty legit,though. You make that up a hundred percent. That was pretty good.Does pretty good recollective. People know that for you, because I don't evenknow where that that term comes from. Yes, it's all was actually onthe Internet, so it's obviously completely true. Yeah, it's ready on the Internet. Therefore it's true. Yeah, all right. Well, after thatamazing segment, we're going to get into our main topic. It's an excitingtopic. Today we're going to be talking about sequels and saga's. Questions relatingto sequels and Saga's we have some questions prepared. We're going to do ourbest stay on topic. Yeah, right after, after the wonderful fiasco thatwas last time, we decided we need a little bit more structure in ourin our podcasting etiquette. So instead of just having a topic and some questionsthat we might get to so for instant. Greg, you had written down severalquestions for last time and we got through seven. You had, yeah, Greg, had written down seven questions and we got through one of themand it took us an hour. It's like and we had to stop outby to our thought like we can even complete it, which I mean,you know, I think there is some merit to having a longer conversation thatwe're going to try something a little bit more or PTI style. For thoseyou don't know, Ptis a sport show where they just kind of rapid firego through topics on a timer. So we're going to try to do thattoday. So we're going to try a format that will hopefully keep us ontopic. It'll it'll stuff going and get it. Let us get right tothe meat of it'll keep us on topic. So we're going to hand it overto Jason and Jason's going to going to get these questions prepare for usand he's going to start kind of laying it on us and hopefully push thisthing along. All right, now that you want to start. All Right, okay. So so where do we leave off? I Wi should wejump back and we're so, Jason.

Basically what you guys are saying islast last episode you were talking about Star Wars and you're pacing was kind oflike the last Jedi. This time you want to tell a little more riseof Skywalk yeah, I don't know how to respond to that. I don'tmake me. Yes, let's just go with yes. Yeah, are wetrust you and not listen to the last episode yet? So Fair enough.All right. So, without further ado, Jason laid on us, my friend. All Right, so first question you guys provided to me so kindlyis what is the best saga? Best Movie Saga? All Right, bestmovie saga. I don't know if it's cheating to say the Lord of theRings. They were a book adaptation. Look out, a patient's fine,where as long as it's a movie form, okay, well then, I meanI'm going to go through the Lord of the Rings. I think thebiggest thing about Sagas is if the code, if the stories cohere across movies,well then then it's exciting and it's entertaining and you can follow characters throughoutmovies or TV shows are entertaining and that you know. Those movies are uniquein the fact that they were all filmed together. Yeah, well, andand additionally they're crazy long, but they still cut out so much for thebooks, and most of what the cutout is just fluff. Yeah, sothey took all they took all this excellent stuff that they had in the inthe trilogy side. I would say I would probably agree with you that thatthat's probably the best saga that's ever been made. I would put forward howto train your dragon, I think, as a great saga. I thinkall three movies are fantastic, both by themselves and as a part of this, this whole journey. I don't really like how it ended, HMM,but you know, I wasn't angry about it. It was just like,oh, that wasn't the end of I wanted. I wanted to everyone tohave like a fairytale ending. Sure, them sucker like that, but Iloved how to Training Dragon. Every single I thought was a great trilogy.Howard short is a music for that one, I think right now. I meanhow it short is Lord of the Rings, but I'm pretty sure you'vegot yeah. So I would put forwards and you took Lord of Rings.I will put forward how to train your dragon as one of the best joywell, of course I think the original star wars trilogy, the original Trilogy, Star Wars Trilogy, or breaking that up into three different ones. YouI think you could take them as a whole and I think you could takeit as individual try allowed to take one through six, because I want totake that one. All right, yeah, I mean, yeah, you cantake it by yeah, I'm going to go with how to train yourdragon. Okay, I'll stick with the Lord of the Rings. I don'tknow if it's cheating. That their book adaptation, but that's those like thebest cinema creations. I don't think it's plaining at their book adaptations. Ifthat, they're damn good movies. You don't have to have read the bookto appreciate the movies. Sure, John, how John Powell music for how toTrine your thanks, just great. All right, I think strong sourcematerials what's going to make a strong saga anyway. So sure having a bookwouldn't be cheating. Yeah, so anywhere right at the two minute marks.We're going to move on. So what would you guys in contrast as theworst saga sequel trilogy, the stores starlars. Okay, we're gonna put that oneto the side. We only talked about why. That's an absolute dumpsterfire. Yeah, I'll talk about it more in the future. Yes,that's a okay. So I'm sorry to think of a trilogy that was justreally bad. I'm trying to think of one that was bad from start tofinish, but you know, a lot of them aren't bad from starting tocan I know on a twilight? I mean yeah, seen that. Yeah, and I just recently watched every single one of those, mainly because coronavirus. I really bored. Yeah, good, no, it's so basically what Itold myself was like, all right, you just got to think. It'slike some like teen TV show that you're watching where you're kind of likeOh, like, the acting is clearly horrible, like it's really just madefor like middle school girls, but like there's at least characters that you canlook at and kill a lot of time. And Man, it was even badfor that. Like it there was so many points in that's like evenfrom like the first movie, where you're like why is this character doing that? Like you haven't told me anything about them to justify why they're behaving thatway, like you haven't done any work at all. It's just it's justlike hey, he's really cute, all right. Next thing you're right foryou say something super in controversial. Boy, transform us. But the first onewas good. Yeah, but the SAGA's so sorrow Su guys, garbage. It's kind of like the lamb before time. Yeah, I'm looking.See. The thing is, I've never I can't evaluate the lad before timesagas. I don't know which the first one, which was excellent. Soone princess as a saga and it's not very good. anyways. What elseis there? It's a deep it's does SMA, Princess, I reverends.First one's fantastic. Second to do not hold up. But I wouldn't saywe're saga ever. Yeah, I'd say transformers. It's just it just keepsgarbage upon garbage upon garbage. And the first movie wasn't that good. Itwasn't good enough to hold up a saga, to say like, we'll talk aboutsome other ones. I think it's a pretty common theme and we'll probablytouch on this and later topics that for first ones tend to be pretty solidand yes, ones are bad. I just think the twilight is unique inthe fact that it started already bad. was like, I mean that wasreally bad. Lives make see, I read the books and we'll talk aboutstrong source material. That's like tissue paper source. The really it's I haven'tread of it. I heard they were good. Also my audience. They'reall were. They are fourteen year old girls. We're going on for alittle bit. I'm going to get ahead and move you, guys, onto our next question, which is what...

...is the best sequel? Okay,this is this is a hard one for me. An answer best. He'ssequel a toy story too. Honestly, see, I think that's my favoritetoy story and I like all the toy stories. I haven't finished for tobe honest, I watched half of it, but it was good. But allthe toy stories are solid and I honestly think the second one is myfavorite. I think it's I think it's it's it moves. All the charactersmove on and have different care like there's character arcs and there are callbacks tothe first movie, but it doesn't stay in the first movie, unlike somethinglike you're like Shrek to, which I would say is better than Shrek one, but the movies are so similar it makes not lots. Yeah, Imean I think a really difficult thing to find is one, just a moviethat has a good sequel like like that's that's in it of itself is like, Oh, like a movie actually had a sequel that was pretty solid.But it's also super rare that it's like, oh, the beginning, like thefirst movie was kind of and second one was really good. I reallybecause you have examples like star wars, where you have a new hope,which is amazing, and you have empire, which is arguably better and and youknow maybe maybe on like the detail side, is a better movie,but it's hard to say like when you hope is still an amazing movie.Yeah, it's hard just to clearly say like, Oh, this is thisis a better event. If I had to pick a sequel that I likebetter than the original, this may be weird just because I know the xmenhole, like that's just madness at there's a time travel and there's like there'slike different universes and then you have deadpool, which is does everything off separate,like the x one through three, with and then the right screens likes. So if you take the first ones, x one, two three, Ithought x two was the best movie in that in that series. YeaFar. I thought it was excellent and I did think that x one wasgood, but I didn't think it was like I could go back and justwatch x two a bunch of times just because I think they develop some reallycool new characters. I'm going to jump in here just because there's going I'mreally surprised you guys didn't get into, and that's the Dark Knights. MMM, forgot about that. Yeah, Dark Knight is, I would still putsuch a good movie. No, Batman begins good. Dark Knight the besthands down, like what a great the thing is, the dark knights sogood that I think about it as a standalone movie just as like an exampleof this is an excellent movie. I was actually about to bring that up. Yeah, I mean, but the thing is I'd still put that inthe category of like that whole series is. Yeah, all three of those moviesare excellent. The first one is, in my opinion. I mean Ilike I may have a stronger opinion on this, and I know it'snot not the normal to think that. It's, you know, it's justas good as the other ones. I think dark knight is probably the bestset of the three, but I still consider them all to be at avery high level. Hmm, right, or you said Ja. Yeah,that's good's call to call. I think. I think. I mean I'm biased, man, but I think. I think the toby McGuire Spider Man'sthe best spider man's I think. Okay, so we don't have to get intothis my opinion. Let me give my opinion real quick. Toby McGuirewas the best Peter Parker, Andrew, whatever his name is, artels underGarfield, was the best spider man. Tom Holland is the perfect marriage ofboth. All right, we'll touch on that future episodes. I will talkabout that like the intersection Dain. Yeah, so moving on. Next question iswhat do you guys think was the worst sequel at all of all time? And since I know you also beinions, we're going to steer clear of starwars sequel. Truly. Yeah, I'm good. Okay. Well thenI'm going to go again on controversial to Boon guire spiderman three so bad thatit caused an instant reboot. And then, and then that got followed up withsomething that ended up being so bad it they had to give it backto marvel. So that was just so bad. And then I will alsogo to Matrix revolutions and Matrix no retarded, no, no, no, said. Okay, so let me explain that. Here's why I think thatthat's such a bad movie sequel. Is because those two movie sequels did notneed to exist. But the Matrix thinks for a lot of sequel, alot of sequel. But the marchers was like a perfectly good standalone movie there. Nobody needed anything else out of the Matrix. And the Matrix reloaded waslike okay, but you gotta be revolutions was absolute poopy track. Think aboutthink about episode four Star Wars. Right, you have a pretty complete storyline.Luca study was just going to make one movie, sure, but inheat makes it stop. But this is the same thing for that for theMatrix. He literally, yes, he he ends the movie by putting outhis little voice call that says hey, if you're hearing this, yeah,it's an illiguous ending, but it doesn't need that. Doesn't need that.Doesn't mean it needed explanation. But if you are a fan of the Matrix, you for sure want more after you watch that. I don't think Idid not saying that they're amazing movies of equals, but I'm saying if youjust watch like the first matrix, you're like, oh my gosh, wheredoes it go from here? Of course you say that. I don't know. I wouldn't put it up there with the worst sequels of all time.I think you were much closer with your first take, with all its finewhen a see I think you may have hit it out of the park.I don't know if I can think of anything that bad. That that's that'sthe one I was I was going to bring up is that x one andtwo are great and then x three guards is is out of there. Reallyjust been? Dark Phoenix did the exact same thing in a different way.I was going to say they made the same movie again and killed the franchise. You want to make it like kill a franchise, AD Phoenix and yeah, try to do dark feet. The...

...xmen cartoon, cheesy and ridiculous asit was, did a really good job with dark phoenix. Like how doyou mess up that? Banks cartoon is to WED amazing. Spider man too, with Andrew Garfield, is second one was probably the worst. Well,that's the one with Genie Fox, right, Jimmie Fox being yeah, that onewas. WHO's the problem with that one? Is Like I actually thoughtit was very entertaining as far as like the fight sequences. I remember watchingin theaters and thinking, wow, this is like a ride, it's likesuper but I I remember sympathizing more with Jamie Fox and I think I didn'tbe like Hey, I'm kind of on your side. Spider man, likethis guy's and that's all like. Well, move trying to run things back inand apparently we're gonna to talk about spider man in a future episode becausestrong opinions. They're yeah, there's a lot talk about. It's not aspider man. I have a lot to talk about. This better. Ohyeah, but so, and my next question was actually just matrix, whichI think we've got that cover, but I feel like we should spend backaround to Greg on we're sequel answers. Yeah, you just kind of beenreplying worst sequels. Okay, so I agreed with the spider man. Iagreed with the x men before that, you stole it before I got itout there. I think there are a few examples of of just like there'sreally bad contrast, because the first ones were really good. I don't thinkthe sequels were horrendous, like they were really bad, but in contrast thefirst one, for me, it was where they took the story. Itwas really bad. I would say the Jurassic Park and also they pirates ofthe Caribbeans, as it both rights, are both both examples of amazing firstmovies. You Watch the first Jurassic Park, that is one of my favorite moviesof all time. Is Amazing. It's so well done on every leveland literally from from that movie to the next is a huge, huge dropoffof to where you're kind of like the dinosaurs are carrying it along. I'mentertained enough. And then you get to the third one and you're like,oh my gosh, this is at like it's unwatchable, and then you're thenew ones that they didn't learn their lash. And the same thing with with piratesthe Caribbean. I would say the pirates cab be in is a little, little more of a trickle off where it starts really, really high.The first parts Caribbean is an amazing movie and the second one gets a littlecrazy and Funky, but I still watchable to me, and the third oneslike Oh, it's about time we ride this thing up and really glad madelast one and then they made some learners really bad. So I would gowith those two just because I was so disappointed because I love the first ones. HMM, all right. Well, my next three topics were Matrix,Jurassic Park and pirates of the Caribbean. So you guys got anything else tosay on any of that? So the Matrix, just the Matrix. Letme let me, yeah, let me stork aback to the Matrix just justbriefly. So, so one of the things, like the whole point ofthe second movie was there was a prophecy that treaty was spoil alert for what? When that movie come out seventeen years ago? Your spoiler. Spoiler alert. There's the whole the whole movies about Neil trying to fight the prophecy thattrinity is going to die. That's the entire point of the entire movie isHe's trying to save trinity's life. He does it. He literally pulls abullet out of her chest, which don't know how that reverses the fact thatyou were shot in the chest, but somehow that that saves her. Andthe third movie she just dies and like okay, so why did you makethis? Why did you give me this whole if they had just gone fromone to three, I wouldn't had a problem with trinity to die. Butwhen you spend an entire movie being like we need to save trinity and thenshe just dies like that for no reason, it wasn't even like a meaningful death. Yeah, but it means terrible and it's also the ending of thewhole ending of the really wonky Jesus Metaphor just didn't work for me. Well. But the thing is like so you have the second movie and and they'remaking a fourth one. So then like what the hell, guys, weneed but the second one, the bigger thing that they were getting at wasthe contrast between the Oracle, who is prophesying things that are, you know, quote unquote, destiny. Sure, and you have the father of theMatrix, who's the architect. was just like it's all about who's literally justsaying there is there's a there's a reaction. Need every action and but it doescreate a pretty like I've gone back and I've watched that movie and I'veand I still watch that like that that scene where he talks the architect,and I'm like Huh, like I didn't think about it like that, andit brings Ford explained that Matrix stuff. But then you got like ghosts,got ghost twins in this one guy who's like you can only killed him withsilver. Like, where the hell did this all come from? And well, why do you do not explain it's that it's definitely a world that hasa whole lot of like outs, right, like you can kind of just belike, Oh, you're perus in the major's Communeah, right, it'sbut I think they do a decent job at keeping it concise. To myopinion, I don't think the story falls apart at all. I think thatthe movies aren't as entertaining to me it was. The more time they spendout of the Matrix, the worst it. God, it was just but that'sthis, but that's an entertainment thing, like you want to spend time inthe Matrix because it's inters interesting. I wouldn't say it was like thoseare those are like those are just terrible moves. I was just so disappointedat the end of the third one. I it was a big one.That was one I was looking forward to so much. where my expectations andthe actual reality? You weren't going nuts for the fight scene. It gotyou go weaving man stir and nerdy. It got to say me okaybs eatitself. It DB DBS itself to death. Drassic Park. Okay. So whenI watched the rest girl top extress...

...part. We gotta let Jason IntroduceThem. OPANIEL, all right, sorry, all right, we're working progress.alievable. So when I when I watched Jurassic world, literally my likemy one thought during during the okay, it wasn't great. So it wasbad. It was bad, it was really and I was like, firstof all, this whole Indosource ress things is, first of all, okay, the whole premise of the indosource recks. Like people got bored with dinosaur isindominous rule. Think people aren't bored with regular zoos. And you're tryingto tell me a crazy dinosaur island is no, you're wrong. They're justlike your entire premise. It is but is wrong. I mean the stupelike the more absurd thing, I think, is that you just like you reallycan't come up with a creative idea given dinosaur words, like like youhave dinosaurs now that have already been introduced into existence by a previous amazing movie. Right, so that's that's the gold mine you're dealing with. And literally, you can't come up with anything creative other than we're going to create anotherpark. And it's not like you couldn't have a whole movie about hunting dinosaurs. You could have a whole movie about dinosaurs that have like gotten into thecity and they're eating people. And other hand, it's just it's just likehere's the do some movie that would have been good. Dinosaurs are pets,but the callers that keep their urges under control. Someone hacks them so they'restart killing their owners. That's way too close to the last one, wherethey can control them, where it's like hey, he's got a laser onhis head. I was gonna say, you know, they did overcome thatproblem, you know, and the first movie they new trilogy. They introduceda genetically altered dinosaur's going to kill everybody and escapes. In the second moviethey introduced a genetically after dinosaurs going to kill everybody and escapes, but theycan control it. You know, they're making progress. And then now wecan hear it. It's a humans do right, because when girls look fakethe whole time, and then the thing that the thing that like to okay, I was pretty taken out of the movie. The thing that sealed thedeal for me was like this trash movie. I've never watching this again, waswhen the dinosaurs are scaping and the main female lead, who was justlike plank of would the whole time, totally Agull, calm playing. He'sescaping from a dinosaur in high heel printing and high heels and literally, inmy brain, I'm about to get a little vulgar, I was like not, you did. I just like that. That was the only thing. Ijust like no, I've done with this movie. It's I think itturned into a one person who died horrifically did not deserve it. Well,it turned into a monster movie really quickly, where the original drestic part isn't it'sa really well told story that has dinosaurs in it, as opposed toa story that only exists to show dinosaurs. For this one, it was likethe end of in the end of the first one was let's have thet rex fight in Dominican rex stomach, an the Meican rexy, and thenthe scond one was let's have the let's have the velocer after come back andfight him, and and that was what the whole movie was for. Ordidn't get also getting cut off. I was gonna say, yeah, didyou guys have any more thoughts on that? Really quickly, really quickly, andthis is not a problem necessarily with drastic part. This is kind ofa whole thing. Like there I was like, Oh, we need tomake this sort of weapon. What is wrong with guns? Did Gun stopworking? Donosaurs are more punicient working. Like, are you an idiot?You can just shoot a dinosaur right, dinosaurs lived before bullets. They didnot evolve to have super bulletproof skin. Shoot a dinosaur dies. Shoot aperson, it dies. Guns are fine, all right, PAP US on track, Jason, I mean, but then you can mount the guns onthe dinosaur. Okay, that's gonna ask. Yeah, but that's totally different fromsaying anyways, we're moving on, all right, so let's certainly dothat in far cry circling back to pirates of the Caribbean. Any other thoughtson pirates? Man, Oh man, that I'm getting sad. I reallylike the first one, the first parts of the Caribbean. Here's the alwayssay, what do you expect from a series that was built off of aride and Disney part no, but like you can't say like that because thefirst one was good, right, like the first one was so good,like you developed characters that were amazing. How much can you actually squeeze outof that? It's pirates, got it. Yeah, it's like corky pirates onthe ocean. It is that are hilarious. Thing is they lent toofar. They went too hard into the supernatural side and not hard enough onthe actual pirate side. It became like a supernatural thing, yeah, withlike with a pirate background, instead of a pirate thing with some supernatural stuffin the and that's that happened to be there. Yeah, and that's that'sthat's my whole point on it being really a really a poor sequel, becauseyou had that in the first one and you like, and that's fine,like to have a little bit of like hey, there's like there's a curse, and because, I mean, like that's part of that's part of likepirates, right, like you know, they believe in curses. There's allthese weird, you know undertones of pirates where it's like you can't do thisor you can do that, and so, yeah, and so there's this likethere's this cursed treasure, quote unquote, and the next movies, like,all right, we had success with the first one. Let's try torecreate it in different way now, and now he's count instead of skeletons,they turn into fish and it. It didn't like yeah, that was likeyou did the same thing but worse. Yeah, it was. It's anew type of undead pirate. Yeah, movie. Yeah, and, andI mean on then the whole Calypso like, Oh, this big woman just turnedthe Ash. Yeah, he is. That a mead when she'd got,when she grew into a giant and then burst into crabs. I waslike, I was watching compleaters on my...

...you don't. Have you not seenthis? John Bony and it what you didn't hear? If you turn thevolume up, you can see as it kind of happens. You can justhear act. It's all right. Thinking in the background. You heard thesong shining for Moana. That was before dining. It was not before MrKrabs. Great Move Left. Talk about talk about Morana and the movie cocoa. Come. Oh, yeah, we do Pixar episode. Yeah, fixardefinitely needs to come up. So we kind of touched on some of thisalready. But what's going through it on a little more detail. What makesor breaks a sequel or a saga for you can start with what makes itfor you. So what makes a good saga? I think the best,the thing that creates a really good saga is planning on making us up.I mean and and you can feel like and I'm not I'M gonna force myselfnot go back to star wars the sequels. But when you make a movie thatis intended on being a saga, you can like your character arcs andthe overall theme of the movie isn't meant to just end with that movie right. Like. So if you watch the first Lord of the Rings, you'dbeat. You'd be like wow, this is a really interesting movie. Whyaren't there more? And like if that was just it, you'd be likethis doesn't make any sense and he didn't get the ring to order right,and like they'll because the purpose of the movie stretches across three films. Andso when you make a movie that that's planning on making sequels, you haveroom for your characters to maybe in one movie they're a little bit of amerry sue and they just kind I do everything right, but you're planning onmaking them like kind of be a screw up in the next movie, tolearn a lot and then to ultimately reach their goal or, like, theirpinnacle as a character. So I think what makes a good seek, agood trilogy is planning characters out through multiple movies and having their arcs stretch alongmultiple movies and have things that you mentioned in earlier movies actually followed through onon later movies. It's not that hard. I would say. You don't evennecessarily need to have an arc that spans across the entire saga, althoughyou know it. You know I feel like some of that is is necessaryto make it a saga and not just a sequel. But to me whatmakes a good sequel versus a bad sequel is you have the same characters experiencingdifferent trials, having different growths and you know you're learning more that you didn'tlearn the first movie. What makes a bad sequel as when you could say, like how was that different from the first movie, other than the setting, which might sound like well, you know, the setting was the same. But what really makes you bad sequel for me, like ink man toor the comedy sequels, I think are the worst offenders of this because theyhad one good comedy movie that was really funny, that everyone loved, thatwas supermetic. Everyone was quoting it all the time, and then make asecond one and it's exactly the same as the first one and and you're likethat that wasn't as good as the first one, because I've already seen allthis. So it's just a bad movie. Now it and the jokes that werefunny become unfunny. I think it you can kind of had have acorollary in Kunfu panda. I'll bring up comfu panda. KUNFU panda. Allthree movies are good, but none of them do anything that's significantly different fromthe other two. Iron man one, two and three. They do differentthings, they have different villains, but the ARCS are incredibly similar for allthree. So the first one is great and the second two just fall flatfor me because he's not really Tony Stark is not really growing in any meat. Like a second one. He has closure with his dad and the throwingmusic. We said we were going to mention that by him SEU man.He had a back off that. You're right, but but I takes developedinside movies. I'm taking that chunk less. Actually said that on the air.So yeah, I can't actually mention that. So you on a segueand off of that. In contrast, while we since we open the MSeu thing, I would say, like you were talking about a movie whereyou've got a character that's kind of a merry sooth and you get some characterdevelopment that things change and then it just keeps going. I think Captain America'strilogy is a good example that. The first movie a lot of people didn'tlike it because he was just this guy that was he was always doing theright thing. He was kind of a boring character and you were able todevelop that and establish that. And then avengers winter soldier, you take himout of his, you know, World War Two setting, dump them intothe modern world and that's what makes him interesting. Yeah, I agree,because it because in the first one, right, I liked the first one. I thought the first one was great. It, you know, establishes thecharacter. It shows you this is who he is and this is whathe's about in one thousand nine hundred and forty five World War Two era,and then you pull him into the modern role, like he said, andwhen are soldier in the other things happened. He realizes I could. You know, if I'm trying to hold onto my values, I have to operatesdifferently in the respects, because it's no longer Oh, the government is isyou know, like in World War II you could say, Oh, thegovernment's legitimately fighting a good fight here against the Nazis. Now it's all thegovernment's doing some shady stuff. I don't know if I'm always in agreement withthe government anymore. Right, I'm not a soldier anymore, so I yeah, I would say captain America, I think, had had excellent character growthover multiple movies that had differing plots. He wasn't facing the same challenges andhe grew through all three and, of...

...course, all the other there's alot of day see. Let's let's curt quarterback on that real quick before weget lost moving right. And I did want to follow up on one thing. You were talking about the Lord of the rings and how it's good sequeland how at the end of the first movie you'd be like it wouldn't makeany sense because you be leaving it off, and the reason for that is itwas made of three books that were never supposed to be three books.They were just one story. Right, so that Lord of the rings almostshould just be one super long list. So know, I thought of anotherworst sequel, but as in his fault kill bill volume two. So youknow the story behind the kill bills? Sure, so, so. SoTarantino shot it as one film and studio came back and so this is toolong, you have to break it up into two and he's like fine,so I just chopped it up a chronologically. All the good stuff in the firstmovie. So the first movies awesome and the second one is just likeit was so boring. So she's got a kill ust to five people.She gets four of them in the first movie or three of them the firstmovie, and so they didn't think it ended the second Mobe is how weird? News fast, all right, it's with the next three dayson. Okay. So so I have a question, and you said put the bottle backon the mcu stuff, but it's better. Really great question. In the initialwhen we were in originally talked about this and it's how do you guysthink the mcu, having a shared cohesive universe, has affected saga movies sincethat started? I would say the mcu is somewhat unique and what they've beenable to do, and other companies attempting to do it have not seen successbecause they didn't understand how it works. Because if you look at the movies, they are more or less self contained. You can watch the Captain America trilogy, you can watch the iron man trilogy, you can watch the thortrilogy, you can watch all those by themselves and enjoy them and and youwon't have lost too much if you haven't seen the rest of it. Itdoes become more cohesive when you watch all of it, but they mostly becauseof having to pay salaries, they've kind of kept the the movies as individualentities. Yet they obviously have the avengers crossovers, but those, again aremostly self contained and I would say to watch end game, the only movieyou have to watch is infinity war. It's and it's not. It's notlike like. This is kind of why we've kept them out a little bitof these the sequel conversation. But I think a big thing that they're doingis they're kind of moving into what the TV show world does, where we'relike, think about game of thrones, give me thrones. At a reallygood job of this. where it developed characters. It's separated these characters,the characters developed on their own and then they get brought back together and theexcitement there is that you've got. You've been following all these characters separately,almost on their own story lines, and you're really excited to see what happenswhen they meet each other, because it's not like a typical sequel where it'sjust like all the characters go and do this, all the characters go anddo that, the next chapter is this. When you when the mcu broke intoit, it started looking like, Hey, this is one guy doingone thing, this is another guy doing another thing. Your imagination as aviewer is already like, man, what are these guys meet? What aBatman met Superman? What would that look like? And then the movie hasand does that and and they fuse them together and I just think that themcu doesn't necessarily concern itself with like, with forcing itself to have to continuea story. It can make a completely new one and then just just feedthe audience what they want, which is to see these these two story linesconverge. Yeah, it has it. They've had a deliberately lighthand on Metanarrative and they've used it basically as a teaser to say, Oh, yougotta Watch this movie, You gotta Watch this movie with right, because it'sjust going to be like little snippets in there that as they're going to feedinto like it's a little insidious, but at the same time it's like ifthey didn't do such a good darn good job, it wasn't. So Iwasn't. Well, there's so good. You be like you corporate whres,but I mean they are. But yeah, I mean I do too, buthey, it works. I get my money. So all right.So, just really quickly, I was thinking about a couple Sagas we didn'tget into. Maybe gets your hot takes on them. Yeah, the IndianaJones Saga. Oh, first three are all excellent. Fourth one is ahot pilot who that didn't actually happen where? I'm gonna you know if I wishyou to say it didn't happen, if I wish upon a star.Hey, there are three Indiana Jones movies. It's my final answer. I okay, I'm a huge Indiana Jones Fan. I like the original, I think, quite a bit better than the next. To See. It's funnybecause Temple of Doom was the first one I ever saw, so that's theone I like the most. So it's weird. As a kid I rememberwatching them and I just remember all the entertaining parts that I really, reallyliked, thinking, Oh man, what movies are those in? And theyjust kept being in the first one I'm like, Oh, way, thisone, that the first one. Well, I go, but this one it'sfriticulous. But come on, that's fun. If it no, Imean like they're fine, like I think they do a good job at keepinglike the same tone throughout all three movies. It doesn't feel like it's done bya different hand or anything. But...

...in my opinion the first is standsout quite a bit. Yeah, I think you could argue and John,but I feel like you could argue anyway on the the original trilogy. ButI think we can all agree the crystal skull was hey, man, manfiction. I like. What's his face? WHO's the kid in that one littlebox? Chi La buff, I think. Good actor, man chat. That's good. He's a good actor that he's getting put in terrible movies. It's not I could get on by as ball that. Yeah, soit's interesting. So you said second movie is your favorite. Temple will doomsyour favorite. Raiders is your favorites of all. Start. Their movie isactually my favorite. I really and I actually I did not think that thefourth one was as big of a dumpster fires everybody said it was pretty bad. I mean Shylott but joying with monkeys and keeps up with cars in thatmovie. It's just amazing now, but I did enjoy it. I didn'tthink the aliens completely destroyed it, but it was, I thought, supernaturalstuff. First ones also, you realize they killed that entire town, likeeveryone in that town dis dead, like yeah, whoops, it was mentioned. I like went ahead and that mentioned for the worst. Yeah, itcould be up there with the worst. Clever. Yeah, that might be. That might be one to work, just because it was also done.It was so abrupt. It was like you have this original trilogy that's likeit's kind of like timeless. It's like there're a classic. It's almost likeif you just randomly redid but like like back to the future and just madeone movie. It was. It was terrible. Think you're like, let'sjust pretended they made fourth Indian Jones and they're just how can do this?This is outrageous. It's unfair. It's okay, the fifth one is stillin development. You know, it's all. It's been an I just like you'reI don't understand why they're coming out with a matrix for and white's comeout the same time as John Wick three. Now can we get three is alreadyout? You're there. My jolic for is gonna be a real bigsidebar. If you're y'all ever see, please be my, always be my. Maybe it's like a Netflix Wrong Tom Oh did have? Is that theone with him in the Greens on all light with that girl? It's so. It's the best Keyanu playing and it playing in the saggerated KANU that you'llever see, the only ever plays Keanu. Read. Well, we'll have toalways to watch that, but so I'm looking. So, speaking ofKeanu, I actually have the correct answer for the worst sequel of all time. And we recently watched it together and it was bill and Ted. Jeez, that was rough, because bill and Ted one is is legit really fun. It's a fun, stupid movie, but I loved it. It's likeyou don't know to I was just like, I was laughing out loud. Villaindead too? was hard to guessed it was, it was. Itwas pretty painful. Yeah, I did not enjoy bill and tittoos like that. Was Not a good movie. I kind of it had I kind ofblocked that from my memory, but yeah, that was that was a rough movie. Movies. Yeah, wow, we got you guys some bad well, I just went through rest of the development and season one through three.I was laughing out loud and like season for us, just in pain lookstrying to get to be end of the problem. Is there too many teasshows? Yeah, now what what we could do? We got what wegot our ten minute wrap up. Yeah, it was. I was going tothrow out Harry Potter Franchise, if you guys want to comment on that. I thought the Harry Potter I thought the movies were good. Yeah,I think. I think the Harry Potter movies. I remember at the time. So so I watched before for we freaking cut me off. No,I watched the first looks at the first two Harry Potter's are done by thesame director. They had the same guy playing dumbledore and it is John Williamsor Hans Zimmer. That does Oh, shoot, one of the two itdoes that is the does the music. All three of those things change forthe next movies. At the time it killed it for me. I waslike I was like the third movie is just horrendous. It's so bad,because I was so upset that they change like the whole look at the Dumbledoredied, so it's their fault, but he says corpse. Fack, he'spretty much a corpse in that first okay, he was definitely better dumbledore than theguy they all was too high energy. Yeah, like well, I meanit literally just seemed like he's about to die. Dumbledore asked calmly.I mean, okay, so I'll just say that now at this point.I I actually really enjoy all of them. I think they're all done really well. I think, I mean it's in a it's pretty amazing that youtook three, I mean more than three, actors. Honestly, it's all theactors except for Dead Dumbledore, and you extended them through eight movies andlike a lot of them started as young, little kids and by the end oftheir adults and it's it was pretty interesting and not a lot of moviesgive you that. Yeah, and so two things I'll say about Harry Potterfirst. I Love Them. I think the great movies. We definitely havethem to blame for the splitting of movies into two parts and they change theending of seven in a way that was dumb and needless. So I'M gonnaget real nerdy for a second. In the movie Harry breaks the elder oneand throws it off a bridge. Right in the books he buries it inDumbledore's grave and says when I die of natural causes, it'll break the firstof the elder one, which is a...

...way better ending. And why couldyou not do that? They had dumbledore's grade and the bearing Dumbledore, soI don't know why they changed it was stupid and pointless and I hated it. But I still like to make sure sand sand all right. I thinkthis question will be really quick. Final question. In this age where weare going back, we're looking at movie saga's good. Movie Saga's like IndianaJones like well, it's debatable on the Matrix side of things for you guys, but we're we're reviving them. You know, we talked about Jurassic Worlda little bit, aren't you? Are there any that you think of actuallypulled off Reviv franchise and spy there any they tider man pulled up providing thefranchise after the second time out. It doesn't count. If you that that'sa story make. Okay, okay, said. I mean how many UncleBen's? There have been Jeez dies every time, or Guystu? I can't. I my brains going blank right now. I think trying to think of moviesthat know there have been dead for like ten, for ten, twentyyears, and then they brought that brought back. There have been. Yeah, I think ry road was amazing. Okay, but the thing is,Mad Max is also. Wasn't that also a remaker? That was kind ofa soft reboot. That was the first thing I thought, because Mad Maxis on. I love that movie and the original ones are just are silly, almost like I thought you owed was was like a soft reboot, likeit's it's not the same if you call that. If you call that likea a yeah, if you call it a reboot, then excellent. Hecalled a remake, which I think it kind of is. I mean II'd have to go back to the originals. I have to look at the chronology. I get the float right humor. George could be good. You guysknow it's going to be another Jurassic world. Of course. Yeah,it made too much money. What seriously, go get out. What to haveyou on next? He also hates cocoa, so get out, butyou like Mojuana, so you can stay, so get out. So yeah,you want to talk about a little bit, talk about a really good, you know, contrast between having good source material and not having good sourcematerial keeping almost everything else the same. You have the Harry Potter movies basedon the books. I thought when you had fantastic beasts and where to findthem niced on a fictional book, fictional town. They date that that fantasticPasces in print. It's like ten pages long. Yeah, that's in Britain. I do I do remember. This is a true story. So Iwatched fantastic pace. I I just kind of thought it was like okay,like it's kind of just suckling off of like the fame of like Harry Potterand like it was all right. It was weird that they were all theSAC like hey, I'm actually Johnny Depp, and it was it was kind ofodd. But then I went to go watch the next one and Isaw it had a twenty six percent on like either Meta credit rotten tomatoes.I don't even know if it was twenty six percent and might have been inthe teens. And I was like, I couldn't that bad. I couldn'teven reach for to hit play. Was it that bad? I mean no, I never watched it. It wasn't like it was part two of afive movie side. Yeah, it was great. It was pretty generic,but there were some interesting thing that happened and it wasn't. I didn't lookat it and say this is a bad it wasn't. It was no lastJedi. So let's move on, all right. And same thing. Lordof the Rings, Hobbit, Hobbit. Thing about the Hobbit is, firstof all, again source material is a great book. Yeah, but it'snot that long. And second of all, you could when you watch the LordRings, you can feel the love that went into making that. Itwas really a Labor, Labor of love. Was not the same with the hobbit. The first thing I've noticed was when they're their first encounter with theGOBLINS, you're like, you couldn't even bother to make the CGI goblins lookdifferent from each other. They're all identical. Well, I think the biggest problemis the contrast there, because if that movie comes out right, ifthe hobbit comes out, you'd never seen the Lord of the Rings, youmight think like it's steps, like it's an you like, I think offinally, like why is this three movie? Yeah, like, I agree withthat. It did get a little long and you're in like I can'teven follow the storyline. I'm just like, what movie was that one from?They added a lot of nonsense in there with a kate from lost.Yeah, let like, let they throw Lego lost, which there. Well, if they got a K first lost in there and in the problem lost, I know that'll that is she's the one that play. She plays theELP that falls in love with the door. Was that in the book? Idon't think that's in the book. Yeah, so sated the Wasp andthe MT yeah, that's true. Um, but I think the problem is youwatched that after watching the greatest feat in cinema history, which is theoriginal or the rings, and so you're like, Huh, it's absolutely Leeterrible. It is in one movie with the same amount of love given toLord the Rings and would have been good. Yeah, it. Just make itone movie and it can be like Hey, this is a nice littleego. Oh Yeah, sure, then he dies in the first five it'sthe next episode. Like, seriously, all that build up and then youcliffhangered me and then he's dead. I will say that that that is amuch harder one to do than the little than the Lord of the Rings.Oh yeah, the HOBBA has a lot of funny like like those in theactual book. The dwarves are singing constantly, they've all got like purple and Orangeand green beards and like that's just hard, like it's hard to translatethat into a real movie, as opposed to Lord of the Rings, isseems a little more mature and a little less. Yeah, you know.Yeah, the Hobbit was intended to be...

...a quick, right easy read forkids. So just a little bit of time to wrap up here. Isthere anything else you guys wanted to go back over? This should probably beits own topic, but I want to just like real quick TV seriuse youbrought up game of thrones. Yeah, by all accounts I had a reallybad ending. I use that as an example. I didn't want to getinto games when I just like, real quick, get into a TV seriesthat had really good endings, that had really bad and they's just really briefly. Okay. Well, have another a few so shows that I hated theendings. Well, that's okay. So I was just talking about this witha friend where when you have a TV show that has a set ending,let's give it how I met your mother an example. So how I metyour mother. Has they said ending? It's how he meets his mother.Sure, ultimately that's going to be the end of the show. Sure,and and you know it's going hand budgets so horribly well. But the problemis that everybody's expecting this to be a certain way and when you do itin a way that they didn't like, you like, it's almost impossible toplease people. And I'm not saying I totally get that. I'm not defendingthem at all because I think they did a really lazy job of it,but I'm but I'm going to contrast that with the office, where you havea show that has really no purpose and it can end however the hell itwants to end. And so it did a really good job, in myopinion, of ending. Yeah, I thought parts and wreck had a verygood ending. Ye, I was gonna say out argue. The office hadlike three different really good ending stretches throughout it. You Got Jim and Pam'swedding, when Michael Leaves and then the actual end of the show, ofwhich they could have kept it right there and I would have been good.Yeah. So, so let me just really quickly. One show that Ilove that had a great ending. One show that I love, the heada terrible ending. Parts in wreck, I thought a fantastic againdic. Theydid like a future episode where they kind of implied a lot of things thatyou wanted to happen, but they didn't not write state it. They basicallyimply that Leslie know, becomes President or is on her way to becoming president, and everybody has you know, they leave checking like here's where everybody movedon to two good things, Battle Start Galactica, which was amazing and hada crazy good finalogy. Either of these write up. I'll spoil it foryou, right up until the last ending, where it was just like, whydidn't you just end on the last episode? Because they like go andthey colonize the new planet and that's where they should have ended, but thenthey had to have this whole thing where it's like, Oh, and youknow, here are the natives and and one of the half cylon babies endedup being J mitochondrial eve. And it goes into the future and the cylonAngel People are which was never explained. I never understood who there were.Are there in a like it's happening again. The silence going to reverble, like, what the hell was that? Even you can't end on like amoral thing. That wasn't the point of the whole show. So an interestingthing about that is that a star galactors announced a sequel set in the sameuniverse that's going to be coming out in the near future. seriously. Andthen let's say these. So either of you guys watched? You talked aboutparks and reck. Did y'all watch the Comeback Reunion? Yeah, that wasbasically just a zero virus. That was bouncement. That was fun. Itwas fun. We'll save TV shows for an and for really. Yeah,I think TV shows can be there all, but I'm nothing about endings. Thatwere all right. Well, I think that was a much more conciseepisode. Better. All right. So now now I want to give justa brief time. If there's anything that anyone said and you want to callthem out, we're going to have a little thing that we're going to we'regonna end with a little thing I'm gonna call explain yourself. Explain Yourself.So if anyone said something you thought was controversial, put them on the spot. It's controversial. Like you had you you you take Umbridge, and wedidn't have time to get into it. I feel like you did say somethingthat I was kind of like really, I think you said, oh,we're sequels. Ever, as the Matrix, I thought that was pretty appalling,just because and not because I don't agree that the first matrix is clearlybetter than the second too. I just think there are way more examples ofhorrible. Well, and we did get into it, like the Crystal Skulland yeah, I also think that the the addition of cider man the originalseries really changed a lot, because we're all like, oh, really goodmovies. It's just when I think of a I guess I could say maybenot worse sequel ever, but you know, the ones that disappointed me the mostbecause I really, really like the original. I'm still I don't thinkand then, and then the set will see. The thing is the secondone. I was still on board, even though people like this is terrible. I was so important. Then I saw matrix revolution. I was like, that was a terrible and it made the second one worst. For we'llsee if the fourth one revives it. Go. I'm that is basically theentirety of our media existence. Now let's really let's see if this new moviecan revive our dead friends. Yeah, let's see. Let's see if youcan say can rescue our dead franchise. Explain and they they do like paralleluniverses. I'm a loser. Maybe it'll do a star wars did and it'lljust make the the sequel and and the third one seemed really, really good. No, that's one thing I'm going to I'm going to call you outon. So you talked about the what makes it breaks a trilogy being nothaving a plan. Yeah, well, Lucas didn't think new hope was goingto get sequels. Okay, I thoughtt about that too. Well, Ibut I did explain why that usually is...

...the case. I think that that'sthat's that's impressive. Now, see, here's the thing. Let me letme try to I don't disagree with you, okay, but I think you phrasedit in a way that that could be I don't think you phrases thebest way you could, sure, because I don't Lucas had no idea newhope was going to take off like it did. But then when he wentto craft the sequel wills, he did it very carefully and deliberately. Rightwere as here does. It was just like, Hey, you make amovie here, you make a movie here, don't move. I don't think theycome here. I don't know. We're stalt toys. I don't thinkthat that points to Oh, look, that can be done and that's agood way to do it. I think that points more towards that. wasjust really impressive that he was able to pull that off because, yeah,that is just I still stand by what I said. Oh, no,no, how do you make a very eerie so I don't even point thatto it as an exception and things to develop over multiple movies. I thinkit's so impressive that Lucas can make movies that you can enjoy by themselves,but you can also watch in a hole across six movies and really enjoy themand and be like these are really fun on their own individually, and Ican also enjoy them as a whole because their cohere I'm going to throw thecounterpoint. He did plan one, two and three from the beginning and it'san inferior trilogy to the original. I don't think it's an inferior trilogy,but will say that no time. Greg I feel like you're being you're justalienating part part of our audience here. They're not just six star wars movies. No, there are just our seven, seven becode one. Yeah, it'sbeautiful. I am so sorry, Jason. Thank you for calling meout. Maybe even seven and a half a right, all right, solet's so let's end with this. I'm going to bring it back to starwars. Rank. We always will. We always will. We always saidwe. We's gonna have to make that a thing. Like we always endwith something about Star Wars. How many we have? No, no,this is fast, as fast, as fast as fastest. Is it?No, here it is the mail explination given. Okay, no rhymer reason. You're not allowed to explain yourself. List the nine movies in the mainsaga, from worst to best. Okay, the last Jedi, rise of Skywalker, greed, the force awakens and now gets hard's getting the good ones. Clone wars, episode two, a new hope, episode four. I'Mgonna go empire, episode five, I'M gonna go episode three, the episodeone and to menace, and then episode six. All right, I justwant to, you know, in the explain yourself. Empire. That low? Yeah, maybe, but we're not explaining this. We're moving on right. So I would go worst is last Jedi. I think it's an argumenthere. Would you agree with that? Yeah, where's this? Last Jedi? Then rise of Skywalker, then force awakens. I think it's pretty uncontroversial. Yeah, then I'm going to go, and here's where you, and Iwould sure we will, can get into this. And now keep inmind, once ipposed to those three, the quality gap is huge. Noexplaining. Let's go. I would say episode two, Clone Wars, episodethree, revenge of the fifth, episode one, Phantom Menace. Then,honestly, episode four, episode no, episode five, episode four, episodesix. Okay, all right, all right, well, that's let me, let me clarify that. It's the episode six. No, that's anit is not specialized. Jason, you got to give your your ten.You're listening, all right, so I'm just gonna same first three and thenI would say I would go episode two, episode one, episode three, no, yeah, episode three, and then, yeah, five, four. That point. Okay. Okay. Well, thanks for joining us forthis episode. Yeah, if you disagreed with anything we said, you knowyou can send us an angry email or tweet. We are on twitter atdearly debated and we are also at dearly debated at gmailcom. So if youwant to contact us, if you think of a topic you want us tocover, or if you just think we're hacks and you want to yell atus, that's great too. Yeah, so this is also red pill theMatrix. Now. Well, I am Gregg, return of the PRINS,signing off. Daniel Davy, Joel he's Levinson. The next time.

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