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Dearly Debated
Dearly Debated

Episode 2 · 1 year ago

Episode 2 - And Another One

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

We're talking sequels and sagas! Greg is the worst pirate you've ever heard of and Nathanael wonders why, oh why didn't he take the blue pill! Introducing Jason the moderator, who does whatever a spider can!

Nothing Swat did you, se whathappened a black cat, went past us and thenanother that looked just like it. How much like it was it? The same cat might have been, I'm not sure, switch apop. What is Tatheix ithapens when theychage smething welgone o episode, two of the dailydefaded. I am your host rig and return op the prinds and I am alongsidewitdaniel redbill Levinson. I don't even know what that means seriously.Okay, WE'RE GON TO AV we're also joined, hopefully by some some much needed help.Jason is here, Ot us today, hoping to give Im some help how his gone Jason.It's going good, Iam Jason, the much needed help. I was not told Anytin theNi Tam, so it's Aa ext, because after after the last episode we took one lookat him. We were like getting Alt, Ov Ham, all right. So today we have a reallyreally cool topic, whet a we talking wait about first this week in history,maybe okay, so the following may have happened in Hisnan, one thousand ninehundred nd. Ninety nine restarration work was completed on the last supperand was reopened to public viewing. The delays were blamed on Cheky artists,attempting to Insert Subtle anachonisms, for example, several disciples talkingon cell phones, Peter Wearing Orolics and John Dabbing, the internal portsreprimanding the offenders fell into the hands of one Damn Brown, who hasinspired to Wright the DEVINCI Code, saying if Jesus can be a DJ, then it'snot a stress to say he got married and move to France. Never Canle Chamberlayn became primeminister of the UA one housand, nine hundred andthirty, seven again of thisyear. whatwell. I guess I should say what day it is. I guess is, doesn'tmake a lot of sense of context lets I say what they had lats the audienceyeah. It is, may twenty eighth, two thousand and twenty o one tousand nine hundre and irtyseven in May. Twenty eighth, never nevill Chamberlayn was elected primeminister of the UK when later asked about the invasion of Poland after thewhole hittler is totallya, cool, dude or fuffol. All I could say was. I didnot see that coming inseventeen. Eighty Eight on May twentyeighth e federalist papers were published in book form this notoriouslyled to the death of the chief offer author Alexander Hamilton, who who, aschased after the rights, were, were acquired by paramount and and bu afterparamoud acquired the rights and cast Aaron Burn. The roll of Hamilton Buonly got the role after Washington's understudy resigned after seeing burnthe streets down in his lock wearing a cast after an unfortunate carriageincident. The understudy cherribly offered fur his lead role. This, ofcourse, led to the use of the term Raca Leggand you might get lucky whensomeone takes pity on you short and later to break a leg. Hamilton was soincensed. He Challenge Brek to a duel and the rest of his history as he bletout Hamilton's lastwords. Were you bastards? I definitely look more likeGeorge clonyth and that's what happened this week is Histeri, so have to callout what it's false and that no, I think it should be pretty obvious yeahI mean I don't I'm not great on history but Atwen Uin there. For me, you're right E.wasn't George Cloney. He said he actually Saik Clintyes a break, a Lekething that sounds pretty legit, though you make that up a hundred percent mea.That was pretty good, thats, pretty good right collect. I me O ad for you,because I ever even know where that term comes from this all was actuallyon the Internet. So it's obviously completely true yeah, this pe? UTherefor! It's true, yeah all right! Well, after that amazing segment, we'regoing to get into our main topic. It's an exciting topic! Today we're going tobe talking about sequels and Saga's questions relating to sequels and SAGAS.We have some questions, prepared, we're going to do our best stay on topic:Yeah, Ri, ht, after after the wonderful Fiasko that was last time we decided weneed a little bit more structure in our in our podcasting etiquette. So,instead of just having a topic and some questions that we might get to so, forinstance, Greget you woad written down several questions for last time and wegot Tho seven. You had yeah Gregg had written on seven questions and we gotthrough one of them and it took us an hour and like, and we had to stophalfby Tooh, our thought like we can even complete it, which I mean you know.I think there is same merit to having a longer conversation like that, butwe're going to try something a little bit more PTI style for those you don'tknow Ppguys as a sport show where they just kind of rapid fire, go throughtopics on a timer. So we're going to try to do that today, so we're going totry a formit that will hopefully keep us on topic. It'll it the stuff goingget it. Let us get right to the meat of it'll, keep us on topic, so we're goingto hand it over to Jason and Jason's Goinna Goin to get these questionsprepared for us and he's going to start kind of laying it on us and hopefullypush this thing along all right now. Do you want to start all right? Okay? Soso, where did we leave off? I wish we jump back Wereo Wen. Basically, whatyou guys are saying is last last...

...episode, youere talking about Star Warsand your pacing was kind of like the last Jedi. This time you want to Ta alittle more rise of skywalkr yeah. I don't know how to respond. I do on make Meyes, let's just go with yes,yeah Ar. We trust you TNOT, listen to the last episode Ye so fair enough, allright so without further Adieu, Jason, Lait Honus, my friend all right. Sofirst question you guys provided to me. So kindly is what is the Best Saga BestMovie Saga, All Right, best movie saga- I don't know if it's sheating to saythe Lore of the Rings. They were a book adapectation, okay, O a patient'sspineber. As long as it's a movie form okay! Well, then I mean I'm going to gothrough the Lord of the Rings. I think the biggest thing about Sagas is, ifthe COT, if the stories co here across movies, well, then then it's excitingand it's entertaining and you can follow characters throughout movies isour TV shows are entertaining and that you know those movies are unique in thefact that they were all filmed together, yeah well and and additionally they'recrazy long, but they still cut out so much for the books and Mostof. What thecut out is just fluff yeah, so they took all they took all this excellentstuff that they had in the thetrilogy. So I would say I would probably agreewith you that that that's probably the best Soga that's ever been made. Iwould put forward how to train your dragon. I think I's a great Saka. Ithink all fhre movies are fantastic both by themselves and as a part ofthis this whole journey. I don't really like how it ended hm, but you know wasn't angry about it. It was just like.Oh that wasn't the end an I want. I wanted to everyone to have like a fairyTaile, ending sure, Om Sucker, like that, but I loved Haw to trainingdragon every single ane I thought was a great chology. how Ar Short is Thamusic for that one, I think right. No, how ard you I mean how short does lorero the Rings, but I'm pretty sure you's got yeah so so I would put forward andSouto Lor e rangs o out put forward how to train your dragon as one of theMestro. Well, of course, I think the origial Star Wars trilogy the origialGilgy starwas Trillgy or breaking that up into three different ones. You, Ithink you could take them as a whole and I think you can take it asindividual chary allowd to take one through six SE. I want to take that oneall right I mean yeah. You can take it BA yeah, I'm Goingna go without how toTran Your Dragon. Okay, I'll stick with the Lord of the Rings. I don't know ifit's cheating that theire book adaptation, but that's those like thebest cinema creations, don't think its ONA other book, Aatations they're, damngood movies, you don't have to have read the books to appreciate the moviessure John Nhow John Powel music, for how toTruin your this is. This is great all right. I think strong sports materialswhat's going to make a strong saga anyway, so tryno having a book wouldn'tbe cheating yeah, so anyweye right at the two minute marks we're going tomove on. So what would you guys, in contrast, is the worst sug sequel,trilgy Wtsokay, we're gon? To put that one tothe side. We already talk about. Why that's an absolute dumpster fire yeahI'll talk about it more in the future. Yes, that's, okay! So I'm trying to think ofa triloge. That was just really bad, I'm trying to think of one. That wasbad from start to finish, but you know a lot of them aren't bad from startingToan. I noina twilight. I mean yes, see Yeh! I just recently watche everysingle one of those, mainly because coronaviras really bored yeah good. No, sobasically what I told myself was like all right. You just got to think it'slike some like teen TV show that you're watching, where you're kind of like Oh,like the acting, is clearly horrible, like it's really just made for likemiddle school girls, but like there's at least characters that you can lookat and kill a lot of time and man. It was even bad for that, like there wasso many points in that, like even from like the first movie, where you're like.Why is this character? Doing that, like you, haven't, told me anything aboutthem to justify why they're behaving that way like you haven't done any workat all? It's just it's just like hey he's, really cute all right. Next, SE,Youe rigt for O say something super incontroversial boy transformers, butthe first one was good yeah, but the Sagas it', so shartagas garbage is kindof like the Land Bepore Time Yeah Li Se theything is I've. Never I can'tavaluate the lame for times saugus. I don't know the first one, which wasexcellent, so one princetes as a saga and it's not Goin Gor anyways. Whatelse is there? It's a deepthats O friendsays oe rens,first, an fantastic second to do not hold up, but I wouldn't say worst sogever yeah, I say transformers, it's just it. Just haks garbage upon garbage,upun garbage and the first movie. Wasn't that good. It wasn't good enoughto hold up a Sagga to say, like we'll talk about some other ones. I thinkit's a pretty common theme and we'll probably touch on this and later topicsthat first ones tend to be pretty solid and Yeis ones are bad. I just think thetwilight is unique in the fact that it's stare Dyas, like I mean Os, reallybad live, make see I brint therlucks and we'll talk about strong sortsmaterial. That's like a tissue paper Portlitealy, I haven't read them. Iheard they were good. Also my audience theyr allwer. They are fourteen yearold girls we're going on for a little bit. I'mgoing to go ahead and move you guys on to our next question, which is what isthe best sequel, okay. This is. This is...

...a hard one for me to answer best, she's seqel, a toy story to honestly se. I think that's my favoritetoy story and I, like all the toy stories I haven't finished for, to behonest IV watched half of it, but it was good, but all the toy stories are solid and Ihonestly think the second one is my favorite. I think it's I think it's it moves all the characters, move onand have different care like theres, there's character, arts and there arecallbacks to the first movie tbat. It doesn't stay in the first movie, unlikesomething like your like Shrek, to which I would say, isbetter than treck one, but the movie is so similar. It makes no ots yeah. Imean, I think, a really difficult thing to find is one just ha movie that has agood sequel like like that's that's inint of itself is like Oh, like amovie actually had a sequel that was pretty solid, but it's also super rarethat it's like, Oh the beginning, like the first movie was kind of, and thesecond one was really good. I really G, because you have examples like starwars, where its O gave a new hope, which is amazing, and you have Y, Uempire, which is arguably better and, and you know maybe maybe on like thedetail. Side is a better movie, but it's hard to say like when you hope isstill an amazing movie. Yeah, it's hard just toeal say like o Isthis is abetter. If I had to pick a sequel that I like better than n the original. Thismay be weird just because I know the xmen whole, like that's just madness.At that K, there's like time travel and there's like there's like differentuniverses, and then you have dead poll. whichhas, do evething Il separate likethe x one through three and then the right rins like set. So if you take thefirst ones xono three, I thought Xtwo was the best movie in that in thatseries yeah Fou. I thought it was excellent and I did think that X, onewas good, but I didn't think it was like like I could go back and justwatch xto a bunch of times just because I think they developd some really coolnew characters. I'm going to jump in here just because ther's one, I'mreally surprised you guys didn't get into, and that's the dark nights ie about of that yeah dark night. Iwould still push och you a good movie. No fatmin begins good dark night. Thebest hands down like what a whay great the thing is the dark nights so goodthat I think about it as a standal of movie. Just as like an example of thisis an excellent movie. I was actually about to bring that up. Yeah mean, butthe thing is I'd still put that in the category of like that whole series isyeah. All three of those movies are Excellentl. The first one is in myopinion I mean like. I may have a stronger opinion on this, and I knowthat it's not not the normal. To think that that it's, you know it's just asgood as the other ones. I think dark nights, probably the best of the three,but I still consider them all to be at a very high level. Hmmall right, Lor,you said Ya, Yeahi think I think I mean I'm Biaman,but I think I think the toby McGuire Spidermans is the best spiderman. Ithink, okay, so we don't t time to get it this. My opinion, let me give my mopinion. Real quick, Toby McGuire was the best Peter Parker Andrew whateverhis name is Gauras under Gardfield is the best Viderman Thom. Holland. Is theperfect marriage both right, we'll touch on that LAK future episodes? Iwill talk about that Lthe Banter, section DA yeah, so moving on next question is: What do youguys think was the worst sequel aof all time and since I know you also peinionswere going to steer clear of star war sequel, Truloyeah, I'm good, okay. Well,then, I'm going to go again on controversial, Tobun, Gaer Finaman,three O bthat. It cause an instant reboot andthen and then that got followed up with something that ended up being so bad. They had to give it back to marvel. Sothat was just so bad and then I will also go to Matrix revolutions andMatrix no retarded now, N, no okay. So let me explain that here's why? I thinkthat that's such a bad movie sequel is because those two movie sicles did notneed to exist, but then ai totays for a lot of seek er a lot of sequlels, butthe mergance was like a perfectly good standal on movie there. Nobody neededanything else out of the Matrix and the Matrix reloaded was like okay, but yougot TA major dolucions was absolute poopy Trak. Think about think aboutepisode for Star Wars Right, you have a pretty complete storyline rocus thoughthe was just Goingto, make one movie sure but M st this, the same thing for h for theMatrix lite. Yes, he ends the movie by putting out his little voice. Call thatsays: Hey if you're hearing this yeah, it's an liyuus ending, but it doesn'tneed that doesn't meed. That doesn't mean it needed explanation. But if youare a fan of the Matrix you for sure, Onte more after you watch that I don'tthink I did not saying that they're amazing movies of thequals, but I'msaying if you just watch like the first Matrix you're like oh my gosh, wheredoes it go from here? Of course you say that I don't know, I wouldn't put it upthere with the worst sequels of all time. I think you were much closer withyour first take Wat al. I I wan E. I think you might have put it out of thepark. I don't know if I can think of anything that SA thatthat's, that's theone I was I was going to bring up. Is that X, one and two are great and anxthree GIS te is is out of the S een. Dark Phoenix. Did the exact same thingin a different way. I was going to say they made the same movie again andkilled the Franchisyou want to make a kill a franchise Ad Phoenix ant. Yeahtry to do dark feet, the xman cartoon,...

...cheesy and ridiculous s. It was did areally good job with dark feenixs like how do you mess up that tax cartoon isItozispman, he rst El, that's the one with Jny Fox right, Jimmy foxbing yeah.That one was the problem with that one is like. I actually thought it was veryentertaining as far as like the fight sequences, I remember watching intheaters and thinking wow. This is like a ride. It's like super, but I Iremember sympathizing more with Jamie Fox and I a didn't be like hey, I'mkind of on your side, spider man like hs, guys an assole like well movetrying to rain things back inand apparently we're t have to talk about spidermanner in a future episodebecause strong opinions there yeah there's a lot to talk about t ITERMA. Ihave a lot to talk about Wasbitter, Oh yeah, but so and my next question was actuallyjust matrix, which I think we've got that coverd, but I feel like we shouldspend back around togreg on worse sequel answers, yeah, you', just kindof been raplying, worse sequels, okay, so I agreed with the spider man.I agreed with the x men before that you stole it before I got it out there. I think there are a few examples of ofjust like there's really bad contrast, because the first ones were really good.I don't think the sequels were horrendous, like they were really bad,but in contrast the first one for me was where they took the story. It wasreally bad, I would say the Jurassic Park and also they hiredto the Caribbean DSIC. Both pihts are both on it. Both examples of amazing,first movies, you watch the first drastic part. That is one of myfavorite movies of all time. It amazing inds so well done on every level andliterally from from that movie to the next is a huge, huge drop off to whereyou're kind of, like the dinosaurs are carrying it along I'm entertainedenough, and then you get to the third one, an you're like. Oh my gosh. Thisis like it's unwatchable and then o the new ones that I hey didn't, learn theirlifeash and the same thing with with Pirtes to Caribean. I would sa thecards get me an IT. A little little more of a big trickle off where itstarts really really high. The first parts, Carbean is an amazing movie andthe second one gets a little crazy and Funky, but I still watch a ole to meand the third one's like O. It's about time. We Rad this thing op then thereally live me ca mor and then they made so more really bad. So I would gowith those two just because I was so disappointedg because I love the firstones hm allright. Well, my next three topics were MatrixJurassic Park and parates of the Careman, so you guys got anything elseto say on any of that, so the Matrixs just the Matrix O. Letme yeahle's ser back to the matrix just just briefly, so so one of the thingslike the whole point of the second movie was there was a prophecy thattrinity was spoilor for what, when that movie come out seventeen years ago,your S, spoiler, Lert, there's the whole. The whole movie isabout Neil trying to fight the provacy that triaityis going to die. That's theentire point of the enpire movie is She's trying to save trendy's life. Hedoes it. He literally pulls a bullet out of her chest which don't know howthat reverses the fact that you were shot in the chest, but somehow thatthat saves her and the third movie she just dies and like okay. So why did youmake this? Why did you give me this whose if they just gone from one tothree, I would have had a problem with tunity nine, but when you spend anentire movie being like, we need to save trinity, and then she just dieslike that. For no reason it wasn't even like a meaningful death yeah, but MESterrible is also beending of the whole ending of the really Waki JesusMetaphor. Just didn't work for me well, but the thing is like so. You have hasecond movie and and they're making a fourth one then like what the hell yeahwe need, but the second one, the bigger thing that they were getting at was thecontrast between the Oracle, who is prophesying, things that are, you know,quote unquote, destiny sure and you have the father of the Matrix who's.The architect is just like it's all about wo WHO's. Literally just sayingthere is there's an there's, a reaction, every action, and but it does create apretty like so I've gone back and I've watched that movie and Ive, and I stillwatche that, like that that scene, where he tacks the architect and I'mlike Huh like I didn't think about it, Lok at it, brings or explained thatMatrix stuff. But then you got like ghost got ghost twins in this one guywho's like you, can only kill them with silver like where the hell did this allcome from and well. Why do you do not explain that? It's definitely a worldthat has a whole lot of like outs. Right like like you can kind of just belike. Oh let in theas commea right, it's, but I think they do a decent jobat keeping it concise. I my opinion. I don't think the story falls apart atall. I think that the movies aren't as entertaining O mea. It was the moretime they spent out of the Matrix the worse it got IAS s, but that's just, but that's anentertainment thing like you want to spend time in the Matrias. In yoursenter thing I wouldn't say it was like those are. He thoseare like those arejust terrible moves. I was just so disappointed at the end of the thirdone I I was a big one. That was one I was looking forward to so much where myexpectations and the actual reality you weren't going nuts for the fight scene.It got you go weaving macaraner. It got to Saming. Okay, I think he seed itself,Idbdbz it self to death Rashic Park. Okay. So when I watch a trestiateswegot TA, let jte introduce themopinial...

...all right. Sorry, Al Right were working probemslevle. So when I,when I watch ARASSIC world literally my like one thougt during during okay, itwasn't great. It was bad. It was bad. It was really- and I was like first ofall, this whole Indosource strek things bise. First of all, the whole premiseof the indesource Rak, like people got bored with dinosaurs, Indominius Reli,think people aren't bored with regular zoosand you're. Trying to tell me a crazy dinosaur island is no you're wrong.They're, just r like your entire prem, it is, but is wrong. I mean the stup like the more absurd thing. Ithink is that you just like you really can't come up with a creative ideagiven dinosaur ors like, like you, have dinosaurs now that have already beenintroduced into existence by a previous amazing movie right. So that's that'sthe gold mine you're dealing with and literally you can't come up withanything creative other than we're going to create another park, and it'snot like you couldn't have a whole movie about hunting dinisours. Youcouln't have a whole movie about dinosaurs that that have like gotteninto the city and they're eating people and an other hand. It's just it's justlike here's. I some movie that would have been good dinosaurs are pets, butthe college that keep their the urges under control. Someone hacxs them, sothey star killing their owners. That's way too close to the last one wherethey can control them, where it's like, hey he's got a laser on his sead. I wasgoing to say you know they did overcome that problem. You know in the first movie The neutralogy theyintroduce a genetically altered dinosaur, that's going to killeverybody and escapes in the second movie. They introduce te genetically uptheir dinosaur, that's going to kill everybody and escapes, but they cancontrol it. You know they're making progrem and then now we can do it ga tohumans to right, because the girls Lok fake the whole time and then the thingthat the thing that like to okay, I was pretty takin out of the movie an Ithink that Seale the deal for me wher was like this a trash movie, I'm neverwatching. This again was when the diaspaus are escaping and the mainfemale league who was just like plank ofwood the whole time so tank wil coli'playing e's escaping from a dinosaur in high heel, sprinting and high hill.Literally in my brain, I'm about to get a little vulgar. I was like not, butyou did I ju like. That was the only thing I like. No, I done wit jus. It'sI think it turned into one person who died horrifically did not deserve it,wel. Well, it turned into a monster movie really quickly. We, where theoriginal drastic part, isn't it's a really well told story that hasdinosaurs in it as opposed to a story that only exists to show dinosaurs worthis one. It was like the end of the end of the first one was: let's havethe TREX pigt Anddomakan Rex Tomica, Temican Rax, and then the second one was: Let's havethe let's have the the loster after come back and fight him, and, and thatwas what the whole movie was for or didn't get also getting cut off. I wasgonna, say yeah. Did you guys have any more thoughts on that really quicklyreally quickly, and this is not a problem necessarily with Jraffic Park.This is kind of a whole thing like they're, always like. Oh, we need tomake this sort of weapon. What is wrong with guns? Did Gun stop working oon? Isors an oiton working like. Are you an idiot? You can just shoot a dinosaurright. Dinosaurs live before Wulles. They did not evolve to have superbullet proof. Skin and shoot a diosauric dies shoot a person that diesguns are fine. All right keep us on track. JASONP I mean, but then you canmount the guns on the dinosthy. Okay, that's gonna, H that, but that'stotally different from saying anyways we're moving on all right, soplus terything te do that in far cry. Circling back to pirates of theCaribbeaan any other thoughts on pirates, man, man, then like I said Ireally liked the first one, the first part o the Caribian, here's the O thinill say. What do you expect from a series that was built off of a ride inDisney park? No, but, like you can't say like that, because the first onewas good right like the first one was so good, like you developed charactersthat were amazing like how much can you actually squeeze out of that? It'siready got it yeah, it's like qorky pirates on the ocean. It is betterhilarious. Th thing is they lent too far? They went too hard into thesupernatural side and not hard enough. On the actual pirate side, it becamelike a supernatural thing, yeah, with like with a pirate background, insteadof a pirate thing with some supernatural stuff in the ND. That'sthat happend to be there yeah and that's that's that's my whole point onit being really really a poor sequel, because you had that in the first oneand you like, and it's fine like to have e little bit of like Hey, there'slike there's a curse and because I mean like that's part of that's part of like pirates right, likeyou know, they believe in curses. There's all these weird. You knowundertones of pirates, wher, it's like you can't do this or you can do thatand so yeah and it, and so there's this like there's this cursed treasure quoteunquote and the next movies. Like all right. We had success fith, the firstone. Let's try to recreate it in different way now and nowhes goinsteadof skeletons, they turn into fish and it just it dodsn't like yeah. That waslike you did the same thing but worse yeah. No, it was it's a new type ofundead pirate, yeah movie, yeah and- and I mean on en the whole Calipso like.Oh this big woman, just turned Esho Yeah. He is that a Meadan she gotwhenshe grew into a giant and then burst into crabs. I was like Iwas watchingteters on mys.

Have you not seen this oand? What youdid' hear you turn the volume up you can see. As it kind of happens. You canjust hear AC. I I go a guy all right! U Thinkin! In the background,you heard the song shining from Alana that was before nining. It was notbefore Mr Prev GREATM. We talk about talk about Manaand the movie co cokoh Yeah we do pixs. Our episode, yeah fix are definitelyneeds to come up. So we kind of touched on some of thisalready, but let's Gointo a little more detail. What makes or breaks a sequelor a saga for you can start with what makes it for you. So what makes a goodsaga? I think the best the thing that that creates a really good saga isplanning on making a OP. I meann INA Ucaand, I'm not I'M gonna force for onot go back to star wars, te sequels, but when you make a movie that isintended on being a saga, you can like your character, Arcs and the overalltheme of the movie isn't meant to just end with that movie right like so. Ifyou wash the first Lord of that rings, you'd bet you'd be like wow. This is areally interesting movie. Why aren't there more and like if that was just ityou'd be like this doesn't make any sense? Bat, you didn't get the ring, Omorder right and like because the purpose of the movie stretches acrossthree films, and so, when you make a movie at Thatit's planning on makingsequels, you have room for your characters to maybe in one moviethey're a little bit of a marry Su and they just kind of do everything right,but you're planning on making them Mike kind of be a screw up in the next movieto learn a lot and then to ultimately reach their goal or like their pinacleas a character. So I think what makes a good seqe good trilogy is planningcharacters out through multiple movies and having their arks stretch alongmultiple movies and have things that you mentioned in earlier moviesactually followed through on on later movies, its not the Har. I would say you don't even necessarily need to havean arch spans across the entire saga, although you know you know, I feel likesome of that is necessary to make it a saga and not just a sequel. But to mewhat makes a good sequel versus a bad sequel? Is You have the same charactersexperiencing different trials having different growths, and you know you'relearning more, that you didn't learn the first movie? What makes a badsequel as when you could say like how was that different from the first movieother than the setting which might sound like? Well, you know the settingwas the same, but what really makes a bad sequel for me like Ancman to or the comedy sequels, I think, are theworst defenders of this, because they had one good comedy movie. That wasreally funny that everyone loved that was super memmemetic EERI was coting itall the time and then make a second one, and it's exactly the same as the firstone and and you're like that that wasn't as goous o the first one,because I've already seen all this. So it's just a bad movie now d and Thejokes that were funly become unfunny. I think I you can kind of have. I have acorrollary in Comfu Panda I'll bring und come fom Handa come Po Panda Allfur,ee movies are good, but none of them do anything. That'ssignificantly different from the other two iron man, one two and three: theydo different things. They have different villains, but the arts areincredibly similar for all three O. The first one is great and the second twojust fall flat for me, because he's not really Tony Starg is not really growingand Tany nee, like second one e Hans Closure. With his dad and the thirdMusi said we weren' Goin, to mention that mcou man, he h D Yo, had a backofftat, you're right, but but I o Tas developed inside movies. I'm takingthat chunk. Io said that on the Air Yeah I din't axtualy mention that so you go in Te Segue anoff of that, incontrast, while we sincly open the mcu thing, I would say, like you weretalking about a movie where you got a character, this kind of a Merry Su,then you get some character, development, the things change and thenit just keeps going. I think Captain America's trilogy is a good example andthe first movie a lot of people didn't like it, because he was just this guy.That was, he was always doing the right thing. He was kind of a boringcharacter and you were able to V, develop that and establish that andthen avengers win er soldier. You take him out of his. You Know World War, twosetting dump him into the modern world and that's what makes thim interestingyeah. I agree because, because in the firstone right I liked the first one I thought the first one was great, youknow, establishes a character. It shows you. This is who he Isan. This is whathe's about in one thousand nine hundred and forty five World War, two era, andthen you pull him into the modern roll, like you said, and when your soldier inthe O, thing's happeing Yo realizes I you know. If I'm trying to hold on tomy values, I have to operate differently in some respects, becauseit's no longer oh the government is, you know like in World War. Two, youcould say all the overnment. I legitiately fighting a good fight yearagainst the Nazis. Now it's all the Governen's doing some shady stuff. Idon't know if I'm always in agreement with the government anymore right, I'mnot a soldier anymore. So yeah, I would say: Captain America,I think, had had excellent character growth over multiple movies that haddiffering plots, Hewasn't facing the...

...same challenges and he grew through allthree and, of course, all the other there's a lot rback on that real quickyeah. We getlost moving al right and I do want to fall up on one thing:You were talking about the Lord of the rings and how it's good sequel and atthe end of the first movie, Youd Belik. It wouldn't make any sense because yoube leaving it off and the reason for that is. It was made of three booksthat were never supposed to be three books. They were just one story rightso that Lord of the rings almost should just be one super long, Mi Don' know Ithought of another word: SEQUEL: W Sn't his fault, Kil Bill Volume. Two, so youhave the story behind the kill bills, sure so so so Tarentino shot it as one film andstudio came back and said. This is too long, Aftero Breaki up in to to and e'slike fine. So I just chopped it up, achronologically all the good stuffs inthe first Movien, so the first movieis awesome and thesecond ones just like it was so boring, so she's got Ta, kill us to five people.She gets four of them in the first movie for three of them in the firstmovie, and so they did think it ended. The second ligbe is o Weir News vestall right hit, is wit the next Adason okay. So so I have a question and you said, putthe bottle back on the mcu stuff. OIT got a really great question in theinitial when we er ne riginally talked about this and it's. How do you guysthink the MC Ou having a shared cohesive universe has affected sagamovies since that started, I would say the mcu is somewhat unique: Ind whatthey've been able to do and other companies attempting to do. It have notseen success because they didn't understand how it worked, because ifyou look at the movies, they are more or less self contained, you can watchthe captain, America trilogy, you can watch the Iron Mantrilogy, you canwatch the thor trilogy, you can watch all those by themselves and enjoy themand- and you won't have lost too much. If you haven't seen the rest of it, itdoes become more cohesive when you watch all of it, but they mostlybecause of having to pay salaries, they've kind of kept the movies asindividual entities Ye. They obviously have the Avenger's crossovers right.Those again are mostly selfcontained and in the I would say, to watch andgame. The only mon you have to watch is infinity war, and it's not it's notlike, like this is kind of why we've kept them out a little bit of these,the sequel conversation, but I think a big thing that they're doing is theyrekind of moving into what the TV show world does where we're like think aboutgame of thrones, gavme thrones id a really good job of this, where itdeveloped characters. It separated these characters, the charactersdeveloped on their own, and then they get brought back together and theexcitement there is that you've got you've been following all thesecharacters separately, almost on their own story. Lines and you're reallyexcited to see what happens when they meet each other, because it's not likea typical sequel where it's just like all the characters go and do this allthe characters go into that. The next chapter is this: When you, when the MCyou broke into it, it started looking like hey. This is one guy doing onething: This is another guy doing another thing: your imagination as aviewer is already like man. What are these guys meat? What AF TBATMAN metSuperman? What Ou that look like and then the movie Eresand does that N and they fuse them together, and Ijust think that the mcu doesn't necessarily concern itself with like with forcing itself to have tocontinue a story. It can make it completely new one and then just justfeed the audience what they want, which is to see these. These two storylinesconverged yeah. It had they've had a deliberately light hand on MEDAnarrative and they've used it. Basically, as a teaser to say, Oh, yougot to watch this movie El. You got to watch this movie wit right because it'sjust going to be like little snippits there that they're going to fe into it.It's Olittle incidious, but at the same time it's like they didn't do such agood, darn good job. I wasn't so Godit wasn't Wex the sod you be like youcorporate horse, but I mean they are but yeah I mean I gi to but hey it works. Iget my money so all right, so just really quickly. I was thinking about acouple Sagas we didn't get into. Maybe gets your hot taks on them. Yeah theIndiana Jone Sarta. Oh first, three are all excellent. Fourth, one is a hotpile of Poov that didn't actually happen where I'm GOINNA. You know if Iwish you in. I say it didn't happen. If I wish upon a star Hey, there are three Indiana Jonesmovies. It's my final answer. I okay, I'm a huge Indiana Jones Fan. I likethe original. I think quite a bit better than the next two se, it's funny,because Temple of Doom was the first one I ever saw. So that's the one Ilike the most. So it's weird as a kid. I remember watching them and I justremember all the entertaining parts that I really really liked thinking. OhMan, what movies are those in and they just kept being in the first one, I'mlike Oh Wai, Thi, a the first one. Why I go, but this one nos fae on Hatsutimean like they're fine, like I think they do a good job at keeping like thesame tone throughout all three movies. It doesn't feel like it's done by adifferent hand or anything, but in my...

...opinion the first is stands out quite abit. Yo O. I think you could argue and John,but I feel like you could argue any way on th the original Chigy, but I thinkwe can all agree that crystal skull was hey man, a man fiction. I like, what'shis Fay who's, the kid in that on Lepo, Chila, buff, iti actor man, Chas good,he's a good actor that he's getting put in terrible movies. It's not. I couldget a I bt yeah. So it's interesting. So you said Second Movieis, your favorite templedooms, your favorite raiders is your favorites. thetor. Third movie isactually my favorite really Gal, and I actually. I did not think that thefourth one was as big of a dumpster fireas. Everybody said it was prettybad. I mean Chila by enjoying with monkeys and keeps up with cars in thatmovie. It's just amazing now, but I did enjoy it. I didn't think the alienscompletely destroyed it, but it was, I thought, supernatural stuff on thefirst one. Also you realize they killed that entire town, like everyone in thattown, Jis dead, like whoopsit, could be up there with the worst seasonever yeah.That might be that migt be one wors because it was also done. It was soabrupt. It was like you have this original trilogy. That's like it's kindof like timeless. It's like they're, a classic. It's almost like. If you justrandomly redid bla like like back to the future and just made one movie- andit was, it was terrible. Youwere like let's is PRETEC, they made forth anothe on Jones and they just how diin do this. This is outrageous. It's on Efair, it's okay, the fifth one is stillindevelopent. You know its o been an s like. I don't understand why they'recoming UN with t a matrix for and Wi suse to come ot the same time as JohnWick. Three, we get three already oay you're there. my Ta is Gona, be a realbig side bar the Er Dallversee, please be Mi, always be my. Maybe s like anetletroncom. Oh did I have. Is that the one with him in the Gren a likewith that girl? H It's so it's the best Keanu playing and playing in theseXagerat Kianu that you'll ever sae you only ever plays counterby well well,have to alway o watch that, but so speaking of Kiano, I actually havethe correct answer for the worst sequel of all time, and we recently watched ittogether and it was Villantet Tojeez. That was rough because bill, an Ted one,is legitiately fun on stupid movie, but I loved it. It's like Don to to. I wasjust like I was laughing atlou villain. Dad Too was Hardi Hiss, it was it was.It was pretty painful yeah I did not enjoy Billan tittous like that was nota good movie. I kind of Ha I kind of blocked that from my memory, but yeahthat was that was a rough movie. Wo Go you guy, Someadijustwenthoughrest, Developmentn, Ohaugingat, dtiain, ththe, problemistherere too many t yeah now hat what we could do. We got what we got our tenminute rap up, yeah. It was Wa going to throw out Harry PotterFranchis. If you guys more lik comment on that. I thought the Harry Botte. Ithought that movies were good yeah. I think I think the Harry Potter movies-I remember at the time so so I watched before Foryo freaking cut me off. No, Iwatched the first locause at the first two Harry potters Hare done by the samedirector. They have the same guy playing dumble door and it is John Williams or Han Zimmer thatdoes oh shoot one of the two it does. That is h. t t does the music all threeof those things change for the next movies at the time it killed it? For me, I waslike I was like. The third movie is just horrendous. It's so bad because Iwas so upset that they changed like the whole Thi Lokay at them. Jump E doordied. So I her fats pretty much a corpse in Thaookay. He was definitelybetter dumble door than t the guy they O was too high. Energy yeah, like Weli,mean literally just fee like he's about to diedumbledor asked calmly. I mean okay, Soi'll, just say that nowat this point I actually really enjoy all of them. I think they're all donereally well. I think I mean it's in a it's pretty amazing that you took three.I mean more than three actors, honestly, it's all the actors except for deaddumbledoor and you youextended them through eight movies and like a lot ofthem, started as young little kids and by the end of their adults, and it waspretty interesting and not lot of movies. Give you that yeah and so twothings will say about Harry Potter. First, I love them. I think the greatmovies we definitely have them to blame for the splitting of movies into twoparts H and they changed the ending of seven in a way that was dumb andneedless so I'm going to get real dirty for a second in the movie Harry breaksthe elder one and throws it off a bridge right in the books. He buries itin Dumbledor's grave and says when I die of natural causes, it'll break thecurse of the elder wand, which is a way...

...better ending. And why could you not dothat? They had dumble doors, grave and inbarying dumbledoor. So I don't knowwhy they changed it. It was stupid and pointless and I hated it, but I stilllike to mensure sand sand all right. I think this question will be reallyquick final question in this age, where we are going back, we're looking atmovie SAGAS good movie Sagas like Indiana Jones like well. It's debatableon the Matrix side of things for you guys, but were we're reviving them? Youknow we talk about durastic world a little bit ar to are there any that youthink ofe actually pulled off reviva franchise and sparter any Thi iterman pulled onproviding their franchise after the second gay ime out. It doesn't count ifyou that's a stramake okay, okay, ai mean how many uncle Bens there havebeen g dies every time, wr Gi can't my brains going blank right now. I think,trying to think of movies an know theyre Hav en head for like ten for tentwenty years, and then they brought that Bronbak there have been yerh. Ithink curry rod was amazing, okay, but the thing is Madmax, as also wasn'tthat also a anmak oatit was kind of a soft reebad. That was the first thing.I thought because Madmax is on, like I love that movie and the original onesare just r silly. Almost like Tha, I thought your oad was was like a softreeboot like it's. It's not the same. If you call that if you call that like a ayeah, if you call it at reboot, then excellent, I he called a remake, whichI think it kind of is I mean I I' have to abagine the originals. I have tolook at the chronology. Oget, the flotioyou guys s going to be anotherdressic world course O yeah. It made so much money. What seriously go get out we'll have to have you on E, also ATSCOCO so get out, but you like Miana, so you can stay so get out so ye. You want to talk about a little bittalk about a really good. You know contrast between having good sourcematerial and not having good sourcementherial, keeping almosteverything else. The same you have the Harry Potter movies, based on the books,I thought ran, you had fantastic pieases and where to find them Ni, Dona fictional book fictional to no the atthey tha that fantastic piecis inprint. It's like ten pages, long yeah as an Brent. I do I do remember. Thisis a true story, so I watched fantastic peace. I I just kind of thought it waslike. Okay, like it's kind of just suckling off of like Li, the fameoflike Harry Potter and like a it, was all right. It was weird that they wereon Ack, hey, I'm actualy Johnny Depp, and it was it was kind of odd. But thenI went to go. Watch the next one and I thawgh it had a twenty six percent onlike either medicratee brotten tomatoes. I don't even know if it was twenty sixpercent and might have been in the teens, and I was like I sue O- was thatbad I couldn't even reach forward to hit play. Was it that bad? I mean? No,I never watched it. It wasn't like. It was part two of a five movie. So yeahit was great, it was pretty generic, but there were some interesting thingthat happened. I it wasn't A. I didn't look at it say this is a bad. It wasn't.It was no last Jedi, so let's be won all right and same thing. Lord of theRings, Hobbit Hobbit thing about the Hobbit is first of all again sortsmaterial is a great book yeah. I would but it's not that long and second ofall you could. When you watch the lotther rings, you can feel the lovethat went into making that it was really a labor. Labor of Love was notthe same with the hobbit. The first thing I've noticed was when they're thefirst encounter with the Goblins Youre, like you, couldn't even bother to makethe CGI goblins look different from each other, they're all identical. Well,I think the biggest problem is the contrast there, because if that moviecomes out right, the hobit comes out. You'e, never seen the Lord of the Rings.You might think like it', Stac Li it like that n be f like. Why is thisthree movie yeah like? I agree with that. It did get a little long andyou'R and, like I can't even follow the story line. I'm just like what moviewas that one from they added a lot of nonsense in there with a Cape from lost yeah like let they throw Lego,offwichte Wel, if hey o Cofer Lostin there and an the pot from lost, I knowthow, that is se te one tha plays t. She plays the Elf that falls in lovewith the door. Was that in the book I don't think Obyethewan Myeah, that'struebut! I think the problem. Is You watched that, after watching thegreatest feat in cinema history, which is the original of the rings and soyou're like Huh? It's absolutely terrible likes in one movie with thesame amount of love given to Lord f the Rings and would have been good yeah. Itjust make it one movie and it cand be like Ma. This is a nice little ego, Ohyeah sure. Then he dies in the first bi its the next episode like seriously,all that build up and then Hou cliff, fangered me and then he's dead. I willsay that th t that is a much harder one to do than l than the Lord of the Rings.Oh, yes, the Huma has a lot of funny like like those in the actual book. Thedwarvs are singing constantly they've all got like purple and Orange andgreen beards, and, like that's just hard like it's hard to translate thatinto a real movie as opposed to lor the rings, it seems a little more matureand a little less yeah. You know yeah.

The hobbit was intended to be a quickrteasy read for kids, so just a little bit time to wrap up hereis t re. Anything else you guys wanted to go back over. This should probably be its own topic,but I want to just like real quick TV sercause. You brought up game ofprones yeah. I all accounts. I had a really bad ending. I use that as anexampl I didn't want to get in to gets bu like Real Qit at enjoy TV seriesthat had really good endthings. I had really bad and thes just really briefly:okay. Well, how Anan there a few soy shows that I hate in the endings. Well,that's okay! So so I was just talking about this with a friend where, whenyou have a TV show that has a set ending. Let's give how I ment yourmother, an example so how I ment your mother has, I said, ending it's how hemeets his mother O. Ultimately, that's going to be the end of the show, sureand- and you know it's going Otin the budget so horribly well, but theproblem is that everybody's expecting this to be a certain way and when youdo it in a way that they didn't like you like, like it's almost impossibleto please people and Enm, not saying IU, totally get I'm not defending them atall, because I think they did a really lazy job of it but m. But I'm going tocontrast that with the office where you have a show that has really no purposeand it can end. However, the hell it wants to end, and so it did a reallygood job. In my opinion, in yeah I thought, parks and reck had a very goodending it. I was going no say: Ot F argued office had like three different,really good endings stretches around it. You Got Gim and Pams wedding whenMichael Leaves and then the actual end of the show, all of which they couldhave kept it right there and it would have been good yeah, so so Yolet meustreally quickly. One show that I loved it had a great ending. One sow that Iloved that had a terrible, ending, parch, an reck I thought had Fantastiandic. They did like a future episode wherethey kind of implied a lot of things that you wanted to happen, but they didnot right state it. They basically imply that Leslie note becomesPresident or is on her way to becoming president and everybody has, you know, t theychecking like here's, where everybody moved onto to good things,Madascartegal Actica, which was amazing. I had a crazy good ffanalegy, either ofTheis right up, Oll spoil it for you right UN until the last ending where itwas just like. Why didn't you just end on the lastepisode because they like go and they colonize the new planet and that's whatthey should have ended, but then they had to have this whole thing where it'slike? Oh and you know here, the natives and and one of the half silent babiesended up being gmitochondrial Eve, and then it goes into the future and thesilon angel people are which was never explained. I never understanod Whi Hthat E. are there Ino like it's happening again, the silons going toRivea, but like what the hell whats that even you can't end on like a moralthing that wasn't the point of the whole show. So the interesting thingabout that is Tatostarcaecto is announced, a sequel set in the sameuniverse. That's going to be coming out in the near future seriously and then,let's say thes so either of you guys watched you talked about parks of wreck.Did you all watch the the comeback reunion that was basicallyjust the Zomarus that was ounsmen? That was fun. It was fun. Well, save TVshows forner, forearly yeah, I think TV shows can be there Oll, but I nosothingabout endings that were all right. Well, I think that was amuch more concise episode, batter all right so now now I want to give just abrief time and there's anything that anyone said and you want to call themout we're going to have a little thing that we're goingto we're gointo endwith little thing. I'm going NA call explain yourself, explain yourself, so if anyone saidsomething you thought was controversial, put them on the spot. Controversiallike you had you, you take umbridge and we didn't have time to get into it. Ifeel, like you did say something that I was kind of like really, I think yousaid Oh worwere sequels ever as the Matrix. I thought that was prettyappalling just because and not because I don't agree that the first matrix isclearly better than the second two. I just think there are way more examplesof horrible well and we did get into it like the crystal skull and yeah. I also think that the the adition ofhider man, the original series, really changed a lot because we're all like ohreally, good movies. It's just when I think of A. I guess I could say, maybenot worse, sequel ever, but you know the ones that disappointed me the most, because I really really liked theoriginalme. Still, I don't think and then, and then the se well see. Thething is the second one I was still on board, even though people r like thisis terrible. I was so important, then I saw matrix RSOVOLUTION. I was like thatwas a terrible and it made the second one worst for we'll see if the fourthonervive sit, I'm BM. That is basically the entirety of our media existence.Now, let's see, let's see if this new movie can revive our dead French yeahLe See, let's see if you can sy can rescue our dead franchise. Explain ifthey, if they do like parallel universes, I'm Alusit, maybe it'll, doit. Star Wars did and it'll just make he the sequel and the third one seemreally really good. No that's one thing. I'm Gong Na I'm Gon Nacall you out on so you talked about the the what makesit breaks otrilogy being not having a plan yeah. What Lucas didn't think newhope was going to get sequels. Okay, I thought about that there well, but Idid explain why that usually is he case?...

I think that that's that's animpressive now see here's the thing. Let me let me try to. I don't disagreewith you, okay, but I think you phrased it in a way that that could be. I don't think you phrase isthe best rer Yu could sure, because I lucas had no idea. No, who was going totake off like it did, but then, when he went to craft the sequels he did itvery carefully and deliberately right. WOR is here. DISI was just like how youmake a movie Hoy, you make a movie. He in. I don't think that co here I don'tknow we're so toys. I don't think that that points to Oh look that can be doneand that's a good way to do it. I think that points more towards that was justreally impressive. That he was able to pull that off because yeah. That isjust. I still stand by what I said: Oh No! No, how you Mak a very series, so Idon'tpoin that t as an exception and things to develop over multiple movies.I think it's so impressive that Lucas can make movies that you can enjoy bythemselves, but you can also watch in a hole across six movies and really enjoythem and be like these are really fun on their own individually and I canalso enjoy them as a whole, because theire co, comera going Ta throw n thecounterpoint. He did plan one two and three from thebeginning and it's an inferior trilogy to the original. I don't think it's aninferior trilogy, utwill Sav that Ye Time Greg, I feel like you're beingyou're just alienating part part of audience here: There's not just sixstar wars movies. No, there is ar seven seven OOne yeah, it's beautiful. I am so sorrJason. Thank you for callingme out, maybe even seven and a a half Alalright, all right. So, let's so, let's end with this, I'm going to bring itback to star wars rank we always will we always will we always Sai. We hes onhave to make that a thing like we always end with something about starwarshow Manono. This is fast Al Fast as fast as fast. This is it Gonto befastinnon. Here it is the middle exclanation, given okay, no Rymarreason: You're not allowed to exclain yourself lists the nine movies in themain saga from Worst Tho best. Okay, the last Jedi rise of skywalker greed. The ForceAwakens Han now gets hard because, U get into the good ones, clone warsepisode too a new hope. SOFOR, I'M gonna GO Empire episode. Five, I'mgoing to go episode. Three then episode one Anto Menace andthen episode six. All right. I just want to you know in the explainyourself empire that low yeah, maybe but we're not explaining this we'removing ou right. Sorry, so I would go worst is last Jedi Ithink, is an armeent here. Would you ahear with that yeah wheres Tho, slashJedi, then rise op skywolker than fore Wuakens? I think it's prettyuncontroversial yeah, then I'm going to go and here's where you and I wi surecan get into this and now keep in mind. Once I've listed those three, thequality got his huge. No, explaining let's go, I would say episode to conemors episode, threerevenge. The fifth episode, One phantomenace, then honestly episodefour episode, no episode, five Hepisso, four episode, six. Okay, all right all right! Well, then, let me let meclarify that it's the episode! Six, no that's Goino is not specialized Jason.You gotta Give Your your ten you're listing all right, so I'm just gonna,say first three and then I would say I would go episode to episode. One episode, three, no yeahepisode three and then yeah six, five. Four at that point: Okay, okay! Wellthanks for joining us for this episode, Yeah, if you disagreed with anything,we said you know you can send us an angry email or tweet. We are on twitterat dearly debated and we are also at dearly debated at gmailcom. So if youwant to contact us ave, you think of a topic you want us to cover or if youjust think we're hacks and you want to yell at US- that's great too yeah, sothis isn't also redpill the matrix hit it now well, I am reg return to theprince signing off Daniel Davy, Jo es levs.

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